High-Speed Rail or Hyperloop? Let’s Try Both, and Reward the Winner

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the Hyperloop is or isn’t an economically viable alternative to the rail project. The only way to find out is to try building it, starting with extensive computer simulations, followed by the construction of a test track.

This will involve no small risk and expense, given the distances required to accelerate an 8,400-lb capsule to 760 mph, then slow it back down. Even a tycoon like Musk can’t finance something like that out-of-pocket. California voters set aside $9 billion in state bonds for the rail project; to level the playing field and jumpstart the market for a next-generation land-based mass transportation system, we need an incentive prize like the Smog to Fog Challenge.

If the California High Speed Rail Authority finishes first, great—winning the prize would reduce the cost to taxpayers by $10 billion. If some hypothetical Hyperloop Consortium wins (I’m seeing a collaboration between Tesla, Bombardier, and Lockheed Martin in my crystal ball) then we end up with a really cool way for hipster documentary-makers in San Francisco to zip down to Hollywood for the Academy Awards or for Angelenos to grab dinner at the Slanted Door.

But who could fund such an enormous prize? I’d like to nudge the big Los Angeles and Silicon Valley biotech, defense, Internet, and computing companies, who have a vested interest in the quality of life in California, to step up. For if nothing else, a system as fast as the Hyperloop could be seen as a really fat data pipe. Musk thinks a Hyperloop capsule will be able to carry passengers and luggage weighing up to 2,800 kilograms. If you replaced all of that weight with 1-terabyte hard drives and rushed them from L.A. to San Francisco in 35 minutes, you’d get an effective bandwidth of 4.8 terabits per second. That’s about 50 times faster than today’s state-of-the-art 100-gigabit Ethernet networks.

So that’s my proposal. I went into my study of Musk’s design document thinking that the Hyperloop was, well, loopy, and that the hordes of instant critics this week were probably right. I came out thinking that the concept might just be feasible—and hoping that Californians, and Americans, haven’t lost the ability to think big. Let’s keep moving forward on high-speed rail—it’s one of the only audacious projects on the docket right now. But let’s also give Musk some room to put the Hyperloop to the test.

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  • DocScience

    Let’s not get confused about WHERE high speed rail can go and WHERE hyperloop can go.

    HSR is a multi-hundred ton behemoth with ugly overhead electric lines and towers, creating incredible noise, danger and requiring immensely strong, large and expensive rail mounting structures, like a huge bridge to be above ground or a hundred foot wide path to be on-grade.

    Hyperloop is two self-supporting and relatively cheap 7 foot tubes supported every 300 feet with a small post, silent, with a lightweight pod which doesn’t have the energy to escape the tube in a “wreck”.

    Hyperloop can go places HSR can not.

  • jan

    Why 10B? Would not 2B be enough? It does not have to pay the full cost. It should just spur the innovation, competition and lure private investors.

    The price as proposed can be read like this: one can build something for 7B today and cash 10B tomorrow. Good investment. Done. Who care about future?

    At 10B there is no incentive for profitable operations if the price pay 100% investment. It’s just a rush to build _something_ first. It can break a week later. It can be unreliable or even unsafe.

  • DisquisTL

    I’m pretty sure that I’m one of the majority of Californians who has voted down the “high speed rail” line: idea, study funding, and funding. In fact, we voted this sucking hole down three times now.

    At each stage, the idiots behind the idea have continued to convince legislators to dump public funding into the thing, despite being rather loudly told by the public Do Not Fund This Thing We Do Not Want And Will Not Use.

    I live in San Francisco. If I want to go to LA, I’m not going to ride this “high speed rail” that isn’t actually high speed, starts a long bus ride away from where everyone lives, and goes some place no one wants to go (Bakersfield; seriously?).

    Every time someone brings up fast transportation between two points, someone else insists on bringing up something totally and completely unrelated to fast transportation between two points: the California High Speed Rail Authority.

    If it’s such a great idea, then why does it have to be publicly funded? People thought the new Bay Bridge was a good idea, and look how that’s turned out. No thank you on the “high speed rail”.

    When it comes to the hyperloop: the primary advocate isn’t a politician, he’s an engineer. In fact, he’s not just an engineer, he’s a freaking rocket scientist. In fact, he’s built some majorly successful engineering companies. In fact, he’s built the only private company in the history of mankind to launch something into orbit. In fact, he’s built the only private company capable of launching resupply missions to the ISS: something that right now, NASA can’t do.

    So forgive me a bit for trusting his judgement here.

  • Thanks, all, for your comments so far. What’s interesting to me is how much venom Musk’s proposal is stirring up on both sides: from people who absolutely detest the high-speed rail project, and from people who are incredibly angry at Musk for trying to derail it (so to speak).

    Jan: I’m note sure that $10B is the right amount for a prize; maybe $2B is closer to the mark. (All amounts are theoretical in the absence of a donor.) But whatever the exact amount, it should be big enough to work as a real monetary incentive, not just a pat on the head.

    One reader sent in a link to a blog post that contains some pretty interesting initial criticisms of the Hyperloop. I particularly suggest scrolling down to the comments from Clem Tillier: http://www.cahsrblog.com/2013/08/hyping-the-hyperloop/

  • thewholesickcrew

    One of the weaknesses in CA HSR is whether or not it can get the ridership required to make it self sustaining. The cost and transit times are two big factors on whether or not ridership will be there. Initially in 2008 they sold CA voters on $50 tickets (from LA to SF) on a train that would reach 220 mph and make the trip in 2 hours and 40 minutes. However, today all those claims are in serious doubt. The costs are rising to build it thus rising projected ticket costs. There are serious concerns that the train will not be able to reach 220 mph thus not making the trip in 2 hours and 40 minutes. The proposed blended rail system put forth by Jerry Brown will only slow HSR down by lowering costs by having it share lines with slower commuter/freight trains. This all leads to a system that is not competitive with flying. At the end of the day HSR may not be cheaper or faster than flying.

    Now if Musk is correct and hyperloop can have transit times of 30 minutes between LA and SF I believe he would have a winner. At that transit time I believe it would garner the type of ridership needed to have it support itself and not become California’s Amtrak. At commute times of 30 minutes that would open up a whole new concept of commuting to work. I would like to see more details though on hyperloop before being completely sold. It is true we know how to build HSR and we see examples around the world. Hyperloop has not been proven. I would like to see a working prototype operate before being sold on it.

  • Joshua Zev Levin, Ph.D.

    A plague on both your houses!

    Both proposals limit you as to where you can go at high speed. If you don’t live right across the street from both of the stations, then you have to spend additional time, and your HSR is not so high-speed anymore. You may have to travel dozens of miles.

    The LeviCar proposal (www.LeviCar.com) means that you drive not more than about 10 miles (in built-up areas, less in congested areas, more in wilderness areas) to a depot. Then, you can ride in your own car body at 300 mph, on a superconducting MagLev (Magnetic Levitation) network, to another depot within about ten miles of your destination, and drive from the depot to there. For freight, the RoboTrail service would use the same network but different depots. Resorts, hotels, and warehouses could be directly connected to MagLev lines.

    Simple calculations will show that LeviCar and RoboTrail can give faster door-to-door service, for most customers, than airlines, HSR, and Hyperloop. LeviCar and RoboTrail are OD-HSR (On-Demand High-Speed Rail.)

    Before replying to this pose, please check out http://www.LeviCar.com for more details.

  • Colin Tree

    In all cities we need different stages of public transport starting with small, flexible suburban transport from the residence or business, linking with inter suburban medium volume and speed, linking with inter metropolis high volume, high speed.

    The interchanges between each stage is an important factor for efficiency.

    Computerised booking and flexible timetables also add to efficiency. We don’t need fixed timetables if we can make a good demand driven system.

    No need to go very fast if you have to wait 1 hour to ‘fly’, which is currently the case at all airports.

    More importantly is using communications to save the need to travel and decentralisation to reduce bottlenecks.

  • Unfortunately, passenger rail is *not* efficient, unless you can get the ridership up. Historically only commuter lines have been profitable. The railroads only offered passenger service because it was expected, when it didn’t lose money too badly. When it started losing money even faster they discontinued passenger service. Hence Amtrak.
    Profit is not evil. It is confirmation from external reality that your output is worth more than the sum of your inputs. You are not merely rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.