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Follica Sheds More Light on Hair Re-Growth Invention

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the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. However, Follica has received an uncommon amount of interest from the public compared with most biotech firms we’ve chronicled at Xconomy. It’s clear from the comments on our previous Follica story that the firm’s patent filed on lithium treatments has been a subject of discussion among people who are hoping for a new way to treat baldness.

Indeed, there’s been interest in Follica’s science for several years. Co-founder George Cotsarelis, a dermatologist at the University of Pennsylvania, generated some excitement with his research from mouse experiments that found that stem cells could be mobilized to regenerate the growth of hair follicles. Early this year, Cotsarelis and his colleagues made headlines with their study published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation that showed that hair follicle stem cells were present in scalp samples from bald men, even in areas where hair was sparse. Follica is aiming to harness adult stem cells to grow new hair, and the research confirmed that hair follicle stem cells are present in humans and could be mobilized, according to Ju.

Follica’s website describes a range of conditions that are considered hair follicle disorders, including androgenic alopecia (a common cause of hair-loss on the scalp), excessive hair, acne, and pigmentation disorders. The company has previously told us that they are developing a treatment for pattern baldness that stimulates the re-growth of hair follicles by harnessing a natural wound-healing pathway.

Ju said that his firm expects to reveal findings from its research in traditional forums such as medical meetings and academic journals, yet he declined to give a timeline for such presentations and articles. While it might be frustrating that the company hasn’t dished out many details about its science, give credit to the company for not giving into the temptation to generate hype about its research without the scientific data to justify it.

The company, backed by PureTech, Polaris Venture Partners, and InterWest Partners, has captivated an audience that appears to reach beyond typical biotech industry circles. But the company seems to be sticking to a rigorous scientific approach that is a must for biotechs that want to be credible in the eyes of investors and regulators like the FDA.

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  • rev

    “We have a variety of programs, both pre-clinically and clinically, to investigate how we can get hair to grow,” ~~ William Ju

    WAIT! So now they’re INVESTIGATING HOW to grow hair? Back in 2008 they were pretty much bragging that they KNEW how to grow hair, so what gives with that line?

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    “give credit to the company for not giving into the temptation to generate hype about its research without the scientific data to justify it.” ~~ Ryan McBride

    They were pretty keen to generate hype back in 2008, and in 2011 it seems they were doing so with unjustifiable scientific data. Thank you for the update Ryan, but this article leaves me with more questions than answers.

  • Pushga

    Aww…come on. If the issue is androgenic, why not look at topical anti-androgens? What a crock.

  • Artista

    About this statement~”Though the company has said it’s doing human testing overseas..”
    I dont remember ever hearing that FOLLICA declared that they have been testing overseas as well. Of course one could assume that it was going on but here is a statement of fact. As i have said, they most certainly are keeping their cards very close to their chest.

  • test

    Bottom line, they can grow hair on mice but not humans. Give them credit for trying.

  • Z79

    Give us a break. Come on. Tell us something. Anything. It cant hurt telling us when the trials ends at least?
    So the lithium patent could be a “just in case”-thing? But why file for it 4-5 years after the EGFR patent if it is not the lead program? Where are the patents for all other programs they have been working on for the last couple of years? I just dont get it.
    A big thanks to Ryan for at least trying to get Follica to talk!

  • rev

    Ryan’s a top notch fella.
    The folks at Follica … not so much.

  • KKwilliams

    When I look back at the 2008 video on msnbc I notice Dr C isn’t the one doing all the super hype. It is Dr. Nancy Snyderman who is saying the trials would be 1-2 years and she would expect this on the market in 3-4 years.

    Either follica told her much more details that were not aired or she way over spoke on the potential and timelines regarding follica.

    All I can conclude is that follica has hit serious problems fine tuning or even repeating the mice results in humans OR they are so close and just do not wish to let information leak and be beat to market.

    After that interview though it would have been impossible for follica to keep investors if they tried to distance themselves from any of Dr. Nancy Snyderman basically “major treatment within 3 years ” b.s. follica now saying they have multiple avenues they are pursuing leads me to believe they are slowly backpedaling because there 3 years til market hype has come and gone and they have released zero data and are still in RESEARCH!!! mode.

    I would not be surprised of follica folded soon. They will NOT be able to get any more funding unless they can show investors real data from 2008 until now showing they have a protocol that will work in humans at a level that is cosmetically significant.

    Its anyone’s guess at this point but following follica is a horrible up and down roller-coaster.

  • Ryan

    Thanks for the update Ryan.

    I don’t really know what yo make of it all to be honest, I suppose as you’re working on something over a number of years it’s more than possible that you’ll make other discoveries that you then have to start from the beginning again with the trial process.

    Will everyone be using this page for comments now?

  • Lurker

    You guys are never satisfied. You want them to talk and they do… and when they do, they dont say enough. He verbally said that they wont reveal news here.

    I have more faith in them after this, actually. But, they “owe” us nothing.

  • rev

    Follica went from having a decisive hairloss treatment 3 years ago to playing around with a variety of programs, so they can see how to get hair to grow. Doesn’t that strike you as being odd, a flip-flop, or something that’s lacking any imminence?

    Everything about Follica’s cryptic, and the latest quotes from William Ju are no exception. Consider that Histogen owes us nothing either, yet they’ve always managed to update the public in ways that require little speculation on our part. I think most of us would appreciate the same from Follica.

  • Shooter

    Ryan = Stand-up guy and great reporter, as always.

    Follica = Slow, laconic and confusing, as always.

    Frankly, I’m just hoping Aderans starts releasing Phase 2 results soon. If those results are positive (huge, obvious emphasis on the IF), hopefully we can just forget all about Follica.

  • tk

    It’s pretty obvious that these guys are still looking for a way to make this work. I agree that the fact that they are still debating which method to use is a bad sign.

    They seem to have the best science out there though, so let’s give them that.

    But honestly, HSC is the one thing to look out for.

  • Caddillac

    I have to agree follica seems to be dead in the water. its been over 3 years since they began work on their process that they believed was the answer and now to hear they still are experimenting with various types is disappointing.

    I think histogen is our only shot at a new treatment in the short term(3-5 years). If they fail I think we will be waiting a minimum of 10 years before the next round of hopefuls can build of their work.

  • Shooter

    Yeah, 3 years ago Follica made it seem like they already had a treatment that would quickly move into clinical testing. Now it seems like all they really had was a basic hypothesis (i.e. “wounding might improve the efficacy of certain treatments, but we don’t know much more than that”).

    At least Histogen and Aderans have treatments, not observations that could potentially turn into treatments at some undisclosed future date.

    Eh, maybe I’m just venting. I just wish Follica would admit 1) “Yes. We have a treatment. It is being tested. Our trials hare roughly halfway through.” or 2) “No. We don’t have a treatment. We’re still trying to figure out if this is an avenue worth pursuing.”

  • Mr. Z

    That they are filing patents covering different procedures does not necessarily indicate that they don’t have a method that works. It may be that there are multiple ways to enact the mechanisms which they’re using to grow hair and what they’re doing by filing patents is proactively protecting their intellectual property. By patenting any and all approaches that could conceivably replicate or approximate their results they’re shutting down the potential for somebody poaching their future market share. It’s good business sense and may, in contrast to what most opinions here seem to think, indicate that they have something which works, and they understand it’s mechanism very well.

    That’s all the optimism i’m capabable of at this point. I hope this is correct and that they aren’t still searching. Cause if that’s the case, then we truly need to forget about them

  • Guest

    If they are searching for a treatment rather than testing one, it’s still worthwhile to give them some slack. They need to be given some credit for at least trying to pursue this. Keep in mind smart people have a choice of making massive profits over the course of days or weeks in finance, sometimes even faster. These are people that have instead opted to take substantial risks over several years developing a product that offers new value to the market (not just themselves).

    If they’re searching for a treatment and doing basic research with private financing, that’s even more admirable. It’s a delicate balance releasing enough information to attract investors while staying true to scientific methods and making accurate claims.

    The fact they are conducting clinical trials in Asia also confirms their desire to work quickly at a pace faster bypassing the red tape in the US. That does not mean I advocate for removing red tape in the US as while it harms the good players, it protects the consumers from those that aren’t.

  • test

    If they had a protocol that worked, they would have already posted pictures of some type. Posting pictures publicly would in no way hurt their business. No one can look at a picture and steal their “secret”.

  • A

    Oh man, that is a bad news article.

  • TOSG

    It’s always mind-boggling to me that posts about treating male pattern baldness generate way more reader interest than posts about treating cancer, or other conditions that can’t be treated with a baseball cap.

  • Mr. Z

    “If they had a protocol that worked, they would have already posted pictures of some type. Posting pictures publicly would in no way hurt their business. No one can look at a picture and steal their “secret”.”

    Sorry, i don’t agree with you. If they post pics showing results before they have patent protection, then other companies, groups of researchers and entrepeneurs will start going after their approach. The competition will start patenting things before Follica which will give them a competitive edge and limit the approaches Follica can take. It can definitely hurt their business.

  • Z79

    Im going to try and look at the this article positive. Ju says “We have a variety of programs, both pre-clinically and clinically, to investigate how we can get hair to grow”. So there could actually be more than one approach undergoing human clinical trials and that would be positive. It is also a good thing to keep doing pre clinical research until the human trials are done, cause IF they dont work as expected they have more options to bring to human testing. And not even Follica knows if their treatment(s) work on humans before the trial data has been collected. They are moving forward and Im sure we will here more official news when the trial(s) are done some time this year. Very good things can still come out of Follica!

  • julian

    TOSG, you can be sure posts about treating cancer generate a lot of reader interest for people who have cancer. Everybody here and anywhere really wishes that all types of cancer already had a cure, but this place concerns about the cure for baldness, a problem that may not directly cause the end of someone´s life, as cancer does, but can make it miserable sometimes for some people. And, it cannot be treated with a baseball cap cause there are times you have to take it off!!

  • gmonasco

    Treatments dont work for 100% of people, so maybe they like having options/alternatives.

  • onionbagger

    nice theory gmonasco, but id dont think they have much at all ,evry body was talking histogen 2 weeks ago think we should focus back on them,if follica still havent decided witch avenue to go down they are many years off its a blow too us all.

  • Metsie

    The way I measure how well a company is doing is the same way I measure how a nation is doing. Just look at how many people want to get in and how many want to get out.
    When you start seeing turnover in the science team and board members then its time to worry.
    It looks like a new person was added to the science team. Sarah something.

  • marko

    So after all the big promises from 3 years ago we are seriously still back again at the 5 years away stage? :(

    2014 in Asia for histogen is earliest thing i see and that time will most likely get pushed back too.

  • rev

    I believe Aderans is shooting for 2014, and –so far– Histogen’s not poking around with alternative hairloss treatments that would cast doubt on their HSC product, or its release. Allergan’s also testing latisse for hair loss which could turn out to be a pleasant surprise.

    Follica’s left me thinking of three scenarios:
    1) Cotsarelis’ latest findings have superseded his last; thusly, restarting Follica. This would mean their previous work wasn’t feasible, and now considered null and void.

    2) Cotsarelis’ latest findings are amending his previous research. This would mean Follica’s previous work was flawed, requiring additional time to refine it.

    3) Follica’s had a working protocol all along, but they’re with-holding it from us until they can patent alternative versions of this treatment to protect their asses from copycats.

    In any case, all three scenarios don’t discount Follica from producing a treatment, but they certainly lean towards a long, strung-out process until we see something hit the market. I hope I’m wrong, but it’s hard to tell without any actual press releases to go by.

  • AlexC

    is aderans plan to create hairs in the lab using cells taking from each donor and then manually implant them back into the recipient? its basically just a ht with unlimited donor.
    It will help lots of high norwoods and im glad if it does but I thought we were pushing towards more treatments that coax our bodies to produce normal natural hairs that sprout from our heads. it
    I dont like that approach at all. I really hope histogen or follica beat them to market.

    I still think follica is working on something and counting on histogen and aderans running into problems as they have. I just think follica has many years before they will get/if to market 5 plus at least years

  • Shooter

    AlexC – No, Aderans is implanting cells that make hairs grow from your scalp. They are not growing hairs in vitro and then implanting them.

  • AlexC

    thankyou shooter. I thought there was still a company in the mix doing that

    I just watched the aderans website guide to their process. it looks similar to what histogen is attempting at least in the implementation of it. I definitely am much more excited in this type of treatment as it would seem to have a much better chance of producing natural looking hairs. I am anxious for histogen to start and finish their upcoming trials. Sometimes our salvation seems so close and then so far

  • Shooter

    Hey guys, just got some free time so I wanted to investigate something that had been on my mind.

    Many posters (including myself) were sort of disappointed a few months back when Aderans announced that only 51% of the men in their trial had increased hair counts after 1 year.

    As it turns out, during Propecia’s Phase 2 clinical trial, only 48% of men had an increase in hair counts after 1 year. Also, Propecia was only tested on men with mild to moderate hair loss. Conversely, Aderans is only using their therapy on moderate to severe cases. This is an extremely important distinction, imo.

    Essentially, Aderans is having more success with the first iteration of their treatment on individuals with considerable hair loss than Propecia ever had. If the next 6 protocols continue to improve upon this data, we have reasons to be optimistic.

    http://www.drugs.com/pro/propecia.html

    Also of note: Propecia pills were ingested orally and taken every day. The Aderans treatment is being administered only once via injections. Even if you could merely get Propecia-like results from Ji Gami, it would still be way more convenient (of course, I’m obviously hoping we won’t have to settle for Propecia-like results).

  • julian

    Why is this thing with the number 5? for God´s sake!! based on what at least 5 years, please? the beauty of the number? or do things only happen every 5 years and if it doesn´t come now we will have to wait for more 5 years until it comes? who really knows? nobody here for sure!! we´re just speculating, everybody here.

  • Herzog

    Shooter –
    Don’t forget the horrible libido side effects of Propecia that are a lot more common than ‘popular opinion’ would lead us to believe.

    Aderans or HSC can’t come fast enough.

  • Serso

    Please, can someone post the link that says that Histogen will be available only in 2014?

  • Shooter
  • Wotever

    I wouldn’t swear to it, but I have got a feeling that the 2014 date on the HSC page has been there for quite a while, and pre-dates Gail Naughton stating a target of Q2 2013. I have also seen a quote suggesting that she is still saying 2013, as of quite recently. Therefore I am not sure the 2014 stated on that page means very much. Would be interested if anyone knows either way.

    (On a largely unrelated issue I note that Follica, based on patent, seem to call mice murine systems, in much the same way as a police dog handler might call Fido a canine unit.)

  • Serso

    Thanks Shooter, Wotever I think you are right, in the same text that says 2014 has a link, and if u press the link send you to a information from April 2010, and it says “The next clinical trial of HSC is currently in planning stages” so it means this is a little old…

  • 4thHorseman

    We all have valid concerns about a cure release date. And the time frame is critical for most as, the sooner we get a result from one of these companies the sooner we will all feel better about ourselves and the way we look. The key here is “TIME”. How much time do we all really have to wait…Well in my opinion, and what I have always been told, “TIME” has an amazing way of answering all our questions, healing our minds most devasting losses and yes, IMO, in “TIME” we will soon have the solution to hair loss that we have “ALL” been so anxiously waiting for. This solution can can not come soon enough, as I would like to spend some of the “TIME” I have left on this planet enjoying my hair, than worrying about it…sorry about the long rant guys…

  • Rafael

    Hi, guys. If we believe that Histogen will be available in Asia around 2014, how are going to fight hair loss until there? Avodart + Rogaine + Nizoral?

    Is it the best arsenal we have to stop hair loss until Histogen hits the market??

    I´d appreciate any sugestions because i need to improve my regimen. After 14 years on finasteride and minoxidil i guess DHT is winning the battle.

    Thanks a lot.

  • xx

    hmm….

  • Mino

    2Q 2013 would be best case senario. It’s all a waiting game right now.

  • Zarko

    Well Mino, I kinda disagree with you.
    It is a waiting game, but we didn’t see any pictures at all about how well this will be.
    So, I don’t think that this is just a waiting game with certain outcome in retrieving hair. We don’t know(I think) exactly how often we will need to go for another treatment also. And another thing will be pricing, because this could be expensive stuff and this could be a problem for a lot of guys(me included). Sorry for my English :)

  • VictimofDHT

    Rafael, I think I’m in the same boat as you. I’m also losing lots of hair so rapidly -INCLUDING my transplanted hair- which is really making me probably the most miserable person on the planet now.

    So, we can forget follica I guess. I’m wondering if we’re going to hear more “wonderful” news like this from more of the companies that we’re putting our hopes in. I wouldn’t be surprised. In fact that’s exactly what I’m expecting. Or they’re gonna keep using their favorite numbers of ” 5, 10, 15″ and add “in the next” in front of them. To me, when they say “5” or “10” that means they don’t have NOTHING. Those seem to be favorite numbers for whenever someone has absolutely no clue how things are going to be. Someone who has a solid base and knows what he’s talking about would give you different more exact time, like 3, 4, 7…

    You can say I’m a pessimist. I say I’m a realist. All the optimism in the world WON’T change facts or realities, does it ? Also, I’ve said it before but we’ve been hearing “in the next 10-15 years” since the early 90’s and well…. STILL NOTHING. So….

  • Jacob

    I know what you mean VictimofDHT, it really sucks and although another 2 or 3 years might not seem like a long time, it is when a part of your body is failing and there’s nothing you can do to stop it. Even something like bimatoprost looks like it will take some considerable time to go through trials, I’ve been reading this board for 3 years now which goes to show how slowly these things move.

  • VictimofDHT

    If it were guaranteed that we’d have something in 3 years I wouldn’t even be worried. In fact, I’d be happy. I can put up with another 3 years living in hell. The thing is we DON’T even know if we are actually gonna see something in that time. What’s even worse, is this emotional roller coaster those bastards keep playing with us. They say in x years we’ll have something. Then they change and say we don’t know. And back and forth. You know how effed up that makes us feel.

    If they just keep their mouths shut and quietly work on whatever crap they’re working on and tell us to forget about them until they have something solid.

    So now, is it 2013 or 2014 for Histogen. Why does that keep changing too ?

  • Rafael

    VictimofDHT, i am fighting this Sh#H for almost 20 years and i have the HT problem too. They are not falling but my overall hair condition is horrible. have you considered to repair the strip scars and try the shaved look until some solution hits the market? Maybe you should talk to Dr. Umar, he is great at fixing scars, bad HTs etc.
    I know that every time our hopes are frustrated, but this decade the science behind all the promisses seems to be more realistic. From what i have read, Histogen is closer to bring us some decent treatment.
    Hair clonning is also showing some progress. So all we can do is try to focus on other things and wait some months to hear some news from Histogen tests in Singapure.
    In my opinion, they would not be in Asia if the perspectives were not good and realistic. Take care, my friend. This hell will end.

    Sorry for any english mistakes.

  • Artista

    Rafael..your English is fine

  • julian

    first of all, Victim…, these numbers: 5, 10, 15 years…. have been given by people like you and me, not by the companies involved. There was that interview for CBS in which it was stated that it would take 3 or 4 years, maybe sooner for Follica´s breakthrough reach the market. That was in January, 2008… So, 3 years have gone since then, but not 4 yet. I´m not trying to be overly optimistic but, even if it takes a little more than 4 years, that won´t be too far ahead now unless they´ve really messed things up. If they´re doing just fine, we can have very good news anytime. So everybody, hold on!!

  • Artista

    Good evaluation Julian. Guys at this juncture in time dont ALLOW depression to infect your thoughts and mind. Persevere through this ‘long’ period of wait. Better times are ahead, you shall see.

  • Jacob

    julian, I agree with you to a certain extent, I posted a few months ago suggesting that Follica could still release something within the time frame of the interview on the today show, as long as they were in clinical testing and as it turned out they were in testing but we don’t how long they have been.

    The latest talk of having other programs in pre clinical was a bit disheartening to hear though, it makes it sound like they aren’t certain about where they’re with the original treatment. I hope I’m wrong and the other programs aren’t indicating there’s a problem, but I can’t help being worried about it.

  • julian

    We got to remember that if they really have something BIG, they have to take a BIG care about that. Their product may even be ready to launch by now but they need to develop strategies in order to protect their invention, work and money. Hey people, we´re talking about the cure for baldness here!!! there are few things to compare to it… didn´t you see the size of that text, the patent? nobody would write that Bible for nothing, that was massive and there must be something great behind… So, you tell me…

  • Ryan

    I want to be optimistic, but there just doesn’t seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel yet. One part of the article that makes you think about where they actually are in their development is when Ju said

    “The firm expects to reveal findings from its research in traditional forums such as medical meetings and academic journals”

    I don’t really know how these things work, but that doesn’t sound like a company that’s going to be releasing a treatment anytime soon. Like I said I’m not sure how these things work, I thought it was a case of doing the clinical trials, if all goes well you get your FDA approval and then you can start marketing the treatment. publishing findings and discussing them at meetings isn’t much use to those of us waiting for a treatment, they may be fascinating for the people in that field of expertise, but at this stage an article in a medical journal isn’t what I’m waiting for, we saw that years ago when they first started work on this, it’s results that matter now.

  • mike
  • VictimofDHT

    Rafael, I’ve been fighting hair loss for the past 15 years. Was doing good for about the first 5 years but my main problem area was the temples and the hairline.That’s why I had all those HTs. I don’t have a problem with the scar now. It used to be big after my HT either at NHI or Sword -can’t remember which – but after I had my HT at H&W it was fixed (by Dr. Wong). The problem like I mentioned is the thinning that I’m having in the transplanted area and the overall thinning. I’ve been a nervous wreck since this thinning began about 3 months back. All of this is happening quickly all of a sudden.
    You know for someone who’s had an HT he CAN’T shave. Also, not every body looks good with a shaved head.

    Julian, I don’t know who’s coming up with these numbers but I’ve been hearing,reading those same numbers for the past 20 years on tv, radio, newspapers… We assume the people behind those numbers are the ones who are trying to find a cure.

  • VictimofDHT

    Mike, sorry but that’s old news. It’s like from 2 or 3 months back or more. 4/4/11 !! Where have these guys been ??

  • Rafael

    VictimofDHT, are you on propecia or avodart? What did Dr. Wong recommended you to do to since your HTs? I am close to 40 years old now and if i stop my treatment i´m sure things will go downhill. What´m trying to do is gain some time until Histogen or Aderans come to the market. About the shaved look i suggested it only if you could fix the strip scars and for this Dr. Umar is an expert. He transplants beard hairs using the FUE technic. I will probally do this procedure to fix mine. Take a look:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M28kOx5VwTg

    Regards

  • julian

    Victim, as I said before these numbers mean nothing to me cause the ones that provide them are, for the most part, LAYS. I agree that Follica´s silence SUCKS but as I said, and you know it, if they´ve got this treasure (the cure) it´s invaluable and they must be really careful. Only when they are sure it´s safe they will start the marketing and FDA procedures, I suppose. Also, thanks God Histogen seems to care more about our remaining hairs and keeps us informed so as we don´t worry so much and lose them too.

  • onionbagger

    I like you julian for your uplifting coments when im having a bad day or need some motivation so thx.do you really think we will see a very credible cure in the next few years or so, or if you have 20 grand spare even a bald man would have some hope ,do you think this is the decade with the breakthroughs thay have had, cause i could soilder on a few more years if i could get at half decent amont of hair at the end of it .ie stay fit look after myself save my money and wait will it be worth it? whats your thoughts my friend.

  • julian

    onionbagger, that´s a nice nickname!! well, I think that the distance that we are from having something really effective on the market, you may say a cure if you will, IS about the same as “the lip of a flea” as we say around here. The day when we´ll love our mirrors again is about to come, I´m pretty sure about that!!! if it will worth it?! just have in mind that one of the ten richest motherfkrs in the world, Eike Batista from Brazil, is wearing a wig, a hairpiece right now!! therefore, that´s all and the best that money can buy: a wig!!! how about being able to growing your own hair back again, I mean, all of it?! and that´s where we´re about to get!! something that´s been impossible from the beggining of times!!! That´s HUGE, my friend, nothing less than HUGE!!!

  • julian

    … and save your money!! I´m saving mine already!! you´ll be certain you will spend it with a pleasure and will that you´ve never felt before!! it´ll worth a dream come true!! and then carry a mirror with you for the rest of your life cause you´ll won´t stand much time without looking at one.

  • DBS

    Nothing I read in this article should cause severe depression and unhappiness. I found it beneficial Follica is now willing to discuss their work. In the past, we could not get any information from them other than they raised money.

    What Follica is allowing us to know is information they developed months and months ago. More importantly, they’re not telling us everything and the fact they continue to move forward implies they are making progress.

    This patent was filed seven months ago while Cotsarelis’ work was done last summer. I can assure you they haven’t been sitting on their hands for the last half year. They’ve continued to work. Maybe they will hit gold, may not. Still, they have moved the ball forward in ways not done by others who promote rosy timelines like 2013 or 2015.

  • VictimofDHT

    Rafael, yes I am on Dut now for almost a year. I was on Fin for like 10 years before that. I don’t think they did much for me. I think Minox was the one doing all the work for me.
    Dr. Wong told me there was nothing I could do. Basically sit and wait for all my transplanted hair to fall out. I’m still hoping that nightmare won’t come to reality, although the thinning I’m having is proving it may BE.

    No, I don’t think I’m gonna do any more surgeries (fixing the scar). I’ve had more than enough surgeries (5 HTs at the cost of over $20,000) and I’m done. I certainly wouldn’t pay for another surgery so I can shave my head. Isn’t that exactly what we’re trying to avoid- looking bald ? I’ll just keep wearing a hat and live like a hermit, which I already have been, until the day comes -if it ever does, at least in our lifetime- when someone invents a cure for this curse.

  • Shooter

    Victim, just hang in there man. We’re getting close.

    Also, if Aderans decides to go into Phase 3 (which should happen in 2012, 1 year away), you can sign up to be a trial participant of the full treatment.

    Try to stay positive, and let’s hope that ARI is really, truly making progress (not just marketing fluff).

  • VictimofDHT

    Thanks, Shooter. Hang in there is all I can do now. But it’s not an easy thing. You probably know the pain you feel with every hair you see in the comb. I’m sure we all do.

  • hairpaper
  • herzog

    That’s interesting. It says Histogen will be presenting their finding in Korea this May.

    May 24-29, 2011
    Seoul, Korea
    Dr. Jonathan Mansbridge to present “Clinical evaluation of hypoxic fibroblast secreted proteins to induce hair growth in androgenetic alopecia”

  • hairpaper

    Yes, I finally bothered to go to their website to check out the link to their patent. What they’re doing is technically not that difficult, if anything I’d think they’d have trouble protecting their IP. Then again it’s not uncommon to keep trade secrets out of patents.

  • julian

    It´s really interesting that these two companies, Histogen and Follica, differ so much in their behavior. Histogen gives out a full view of all their acts and plans and Follica doesn´t say a word about their situation, never.

  • Metsie

    Im sorry I just dont believe Histogen is telling the whole truth. I dont think the timelines are real. It may be closer it may be further.Remember this is a competition for Billions. Its like Nimitz telling the Japaneese where the fleet and carriers were located.
    Sorry about the analogy, too much history channel.

  • Artista

    Metsie, i personally like the WWII reference.
    You make a good point and that point relates to ALL of the companies involved. Who would want to risk having the rug pulled out from under? ESPECIALLY when it involves, yes billions of $$$

  • Maverick

    Can somebody pleas explain this part of the text.

    “Gene Therapy – Fortunately, the scalp is readily accessible to topical therapies as it allows direct penetration of a drug to a target area. It is theoretically possible to introduce genetic material directly into cells using liposome-DNA mixtures that carry the missing gene(s) to generate new hair.”

    http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair-loss-genetics/

  • hairpaper

    In general it means what you’d probably think makes sense – the skin is easier to gain access to for gene therapy than, e.g. the heart, the kidneys, etc.

    What they are suggesting (from the quote you posted) is also a general goal of many gene therapy laboratories. Gene repair or modification to cure a disease. For example, you lack protein X in the scalp which normally keeps hair from shedding. After determining protein X is produced by gene FF you realize that all the bald guys have a small mutation in a region close to gene FF so that it’s turned ‘off’ in skin cells. You introduce a piece of DNA via liposome.
    **[A liposome is essentially a micelle or ‘fat coating’ that surrounds DNA. The liposome binds to a cell, fuses with it (like small bubbles fusing with a large bubble) and releases the DNA contents.]** If a cell is dividing, the DNA gets access to chromosomes during the division process when the nuclear envelope/casing temporarily breaks down.

    The piece of DNA with the ‘correction’ to the mutation will be recognized by the DNA damage repair proteins of the cells. They say “oh crap, here’s a piece of DNA with breaks in it. let’s repair!” and they unknowingly ‘repair’ or seamlessly swap out the screwed up/mutated DNA in the chromosome for your artificially introduced piece of DNA that has the modifications you want. There are various scenarios of what the mutation, or deletion or insertion can be and how exactly that leads to a deregulation of a process in a cell. In the quotation you provide they are of course painting in very broad strokes.

    That’s a basic breakdown. I am currently in biotech (one of the founders and I direct the research) and I have a long history working with stem cells, gene repair, and my true passion, anticancer therapy.

  • Maverick

    @hairpaper thx

    But my concern about this quotation is that I personally find it quite strange that some HT surgeon will put this kind of statement under treatment options on his HT website(you will not find that option on Rassman´s website for sure, or any other HT surgeon). Especially when this what you described in details looks futuristic at least.

    What I wanted to say is, I understand that first statement about early stage balding prevention, I´ve read it for about a million times(propecia, minox., nizoral) but that second option blew me away. I mean what is that guy talking about when that gene therapy everything but available. :D

  • hairpaper

    No, gene therapy strategies for hair loss (or really any disease) are not currently available.
    The posting you had came off as a lack of understanding of the technical aspect.
    As far as why that website mentions gene therapy, look at the link and read the entire page. They are simply stating that understanding the genetics of hair loss will assist in making better therapies in the future.

  • ZZ

    hairpaper,

    Since your passion is anticancer therapy, I am curious as to what you thought about Histogen’s findings that their product selectively destroyed cancer cells in vitro without harming any of the healthy cells. I don’t know much about the science of all of that but it sounded incredible. It didn’t seem to get much media play.

  • hairpaper

    Hi zz, until you mentioned that finding I honestly hadn’t heard about it. The field of cancer research is massive and I have not looked at the Histogen site in much detail.

    It’s often hard to say what will or won’t get media play. I’ve seen scientists get interviews for fascinating research and others with even more fascinating research that is mostly praised within the scientific community. It all depends on the perception by science journalists, whether the work has been presented in a very public forum, ‘shock’ value, etc.

    Having said that, what Histogen’s anticancer claims are very interesting but it’s too early to say what promise the work holds. I am 100% for putting all oncologists out of work! But at the same time these type of lab results have to be taken with a large grain of salt. You know that if you were to use chemotherapy drugs from 50 years ago you could eliminate tumors in mice? The key is the type of tumor since >99% of the time these studies are done with xenografts. If you performed a study where you wanted 10 mice to have tumors, you wouldn’t inject the mice with yellow dye #40 or give them cigarettes, the results in terms of tumor size, speed of growth, etc would vary. Instead, what has been done for what seems like forever is to take a cell line (e.g. a cell line derived from a lung tumor) and grind it up to the single cell level, then inject each mouse with the same # of cells. That way, the mice all get tumors at relatively same size in the same time frame in the same location (e.g. flank). Problem is, while it’s VERY handy and rapid to test new drugs, many many therapies that can kill xenografts can often fail big time in ‘primary’ tumors (e.g. a mouse riddled with lung tumors after inhalation of a carcinogen).

    I know this may seem weird, but it really is the pattern typically followed for anticancer therapy — A) cell tests, B) tests in mice/rats (preclinical) and C) clinical trials in people. Sometimes tests done in ‘B’ go through xenografts and then ‘graduate’ to primary tumors but it’s hard to have very similar tumor types (e.g. mice with knocked out in a tumor suppressor gene), maintain colonies of hundreds of mice, etc.
    Keep in mind that the pre-clinical tests nowadays are getting more and more sophisticated whereas back in the day drugs were screened (and I kid you not) by testing for toxicity against brine shrimp and potato calluses.

  • Artista

    Hairpaper, thanks for the insight. One can forget or not even know just how complexed and especially vast the scientific community really is. Funding is an all too important necessity of course. Public awareness is a huge factor too i would imagine.

  • hairpaper

    No problem. It is, but I like biotech better in that it’s a limited time frame to sink or swim. What are typically long waits, or perceived as long waits, for private biotechs are much worse in academia. Useless labs and projects can stretch on forever. But I better not rant about that.
    I will add that was Histogen is doing, “announcing their strategy”, is not giving away their plans to other companies that would ‘scoop’ them. I’ve seen their website, briefly looked over their patent – this is what I do for a living and I’m telling you it would take a while for me to reproduce what I read. Even then, this is assuming I know how to achieve what they claim. Details could be easily left out.

  • hairquest

    Ah! nexttime is back under another name…

  • rev

    I certainly hope not.

    Nexttime was a condescending narcissist and a domineering jerk. He’d fit right at home at Puretech ventures.

  • Jacob

    hairquest, I thought the same at first, but like rev said hairpaper doesn’t seem to be condescending like nexttime was. It’s good to have someone from the world of biotech involved in the discussions.

  • rev

    Agreed.
    I’m appreciative of any input from level-headed people within the biotech industry.

  • Nicey

    It gets a bit more interesting if you actually wade through the patent.

    Apparently they’re in clinical trials abroad with a combined device and drug. The patent is regarding the topical application of lithium gluconate 8% in a strict timing to synchronize the hair follicles into growth mode. Don’t go rubbing this stuff on without the schedule though, as it will kill hair follicles if used on the wrong cycle.

    Where it gets interesting is when you hear about the trial with a device included.

    Follica have become known for regrowth via damage with a chemical. I (obviously) speculate that the device causes the damage, and the lithium causes the stem cells to kick in if the timing is done correctly.

    My beef with Follica has always been so what. You can get new hair follicles to grow. They’ll get killed by DHT/Androgen just like the previous ones. Still, it’d buy most guys 10 years between treatments. Imagine having the hair you had at 18 again.

    There’s a big race on here between companies. If you can, hold off chopping anything for a few years, it’s coming, and it’s coming ‘quick’.

  • ZZ

    Thanks hairpaper. Very interesting!

  • hairpaper

    No problem ZZ. My posts were not meant to be condescending. I started chiming in after someone with username spyder asked about a paper from Germany. Interesting paper but in a low key journal. I am not in hair or skin research but cancer research. Usually I do like to give biology info when I can to family members of patients who are looking at experimental therapies. I am not a doctor but sometimes people want to know mechanism. Let me tell you, if you think hair loss can be a downer, some of the cancer victim stories are horrific. Hair loss is something I looked into recently because I figured I’d test something on myself if the protocol was clear and data convincing enough. Still haven’t met those two criteria.

    Nicey, with patents in science the researcher will explain in a very broad manner how to execute the experiment. You have to have sufficient information that someone trained inthe art can reproduce your results. What you actually use day to day is a different matter. Lithium for example may be something that piqued a hair company’s interest for a time but it’s only part of the puzzle. You can take lithium and swap that out with really anything if your claims are broad enough. It may be some company’s silver bullet or worst reagent. Have you seen if they’ve published anything recently? That would be the best bet if there is a detailed materials section.

  • ZZ

    hairpaper, Here’s someone thinking outside the box in your field that may interest you:

    http://www.xconomy.com/national/2011/04/11/open-source-biology-deserves-a-shot/

  • hairquest

    I have a serious doubt…maybe he’s hidding behind this new behaviour…we’ll see guys! of course, it’s always interesting!

  • hairpaper

    Zz, thanks. I skimmed the article and it is an interesting concept. Hard to say if that will ever take off. Money is a big motivator and academics don’t make a lot of it. Hard to convince someone who’s married with kids to toss their primary data into a public database that someone else can mine.
    If there is any publication coming out of Histogen on their work I definitely would like to see it. Do you or the person who began these discussions have some kind of connection to the scientists at Histogen?

    hairquest – i’m in love with you. please come over my place for a barbecue and more this weekend.

  • hairquest

    Great! thanks nexttime, i bring the wine.

  • froggy

    What do you think of this:

    http://www.aderansresearch.com/pdfs/PR_03_31_11_Sharing_Findings.pdf

    Dr Washenik went to 3 international congress

    => 2 congress in the United States (New Orleans and Orlando)
    => 1 congress in Europe (Paris)

    Is Aderans confident enough in the progress to begin to share informations with the industry and to try to find partners for commercialisation?

    Is Aderans reacting to the lastest news about Histogen (and others compagnies) progress. If so that would be a good sign that Aderans think those progress (and the compagnies) are real and serious.

    Or is Aderans facing some diffuculties and need help (fundings…)

    But that’s a fact there is something.
    Dr Washenik was so discrete for so many years and now 3 international congress in such a small period of time.
    There are some new things that push them to move and share(good or bad things?)
    Every change has a cause.

    Or maybe this is just a coincidence? I don’t thing because Dr Washenik is not paid to go to congress but to search for some cure in his lab.

    My personnal opinion is that they might be close to succeed.
    1) like I said before I had very good vibes seeing Dr Washenik on french TV.
    2) Aderans is not a “show off company”.
    3) why spending a lot of money to buy a UK company (I forgot the name) that worked on the same process than Aderans but failed? Because the compagny was on something and Aderans wanted to protect the concept?

    And if they are close to succeed let’s be realistic they are still some issues:
    1) Price (probably the same than FUE)
    2) Efficacity (no picture to date)

  • Shooter

    Interesting, I saw that press release and essentially dismissed it because I didn’t think it presented anything meaningful about their clinical trials. Still, I agree that it means something… bad or good, I really can’t say. Either they are having trouble and they are just looking for cheap publicity, or things are going well and they are starting to get the publicity ball rolling. Who knows.

    At this point, the only thing I care about is their Phase 2 results. They said they’d release more detailed information during 2011, so we can only hope that the next trial update shows an increase in efficacy.

  • julian

    well Froggy, that´s a good sign. The more companies show their progresses the faster things will move. Aderans concept is in fact a HT that really works, without its obvious limitation and not demanding a surgery. So, I disagree that the price would be the same. Probably it would be cheaper. And even if it was the same, the results would be far better. As Shooter said, let´s wait for their phase 2 results. 2011 will be a decisive year it seems!!

  • zachary

    May I ask what Julian means of aderans just being an ht.
    I thought aderans was cutting edge science where they inject cells back into the scalp and create ideal conditions for new hairs to from and grow.

  • julian

    Zachary, I meant a HT because the cells implanted into the scalp are taken from the same person or donor. So, the main idea remains the same, but their goal is to improve it, but off course, there are much more to be worked out in the whole process, which is what they´ve been doing.

  • julian

    Actually it isn´t a HAIR transplant anymore since it´s not the hairs or folicles that change places, but it still a transplantation because the cells that produce them, after being cloned e multiplied, are injected in the areas unable to produce hair.

  • julian

    But you´re right, it´s not a transplant anymore, cause they can produce many clones from a single cell, taken from the donor, and all these cells, which are copies but WEREN´T originally there (they were made from a cell that was there), are put into the scalp of the donor. So it´s an implantation now.

  • VictimofDHT

    So is this cloning stuff going to be a reality any time soon ? They used to talk about it as something of the far future. Do you guys think it’s not that far off ? That ad on Aderan’s site makes it look as if it were already available.

  • VictimofDHT

    Why is it so quiet here ? Or are you commenting somewhere else ?

  • Ryan

    We’re still commenting here VictimofDHT, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot to talk about at the moment.

  • VictimofDHT

    Thanks, Ryan. Just wanted to make sure the commenting wasn’t moved to a different page -this one- like it was a couple of weeks back.

  • murty barron

    I wouldnt fear gents…they have more than likely told us all they know…itll be a year or so before they could have anything they need to just go and get stuck into it and get the job done…theyll have those clinical trials in a few months but aside from that we just need to wait

  • Metsie

    Ok at this point I wouldn’t mind seeing an argument about the pros and cons of HT.
    Just kidding, hang in there guys.

  • happy1

    New HT machine.

    http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110414005869/en/ARTAS-System-Receives-FDA-Clearance-Ground-Breaking-Technology

    I thought at first that it would be used for re-transplating and could be used by Alderans in the cloning process. However it appears it is for harvesting only. I guess if someone still wanted to use stone age technology but just wanted a smaller scar they might get excited about this.

    I’ve rather shave it short and wait.

  • Victimofdht

    So, how many of you are actually optimistic that we’re going to see a real hair loss treatment in the next couple of years ?

  • Metsie

    I dont think anybody would really be paying attention unless they were hopeful something was going to come out in a reasonable time frame.

  • julian

    Exact, Metsie. Have you seen this new movie, Barney´s Version, with Paul Giamatti? I wanna see it cause I like the actor and the plot seems very interesting. It´s incredible how just adding a little more hair to a person makes them look younger. It´s amazing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsfjXNMQt8I

  • VictimofDHT

    Just lowering the temples a mere inch or so can make a person look younger.

  • DBS

    I’ve gone back and forth as to whether we’re actually close to a workable product, but, ultimately, I don’t believe we are. For all of the advances that have been made, nothing has provided that WOW moment, at least not yet.

    I definitely think we’re closer than we were even a year ago, but we’ve got a long way to go. Right now, I would be surprised, happily though, if something worthwhile had been developed by 2020.

    Not trying to be gloomy, but would anyone in 2001 have thought we’d be where we are in 2011?

  • Ryan

    DBS, There wasn’t 3 companies in clinical trials in 2001. I don’t know how close we’re to a treatment but I think we’ll have quite a few things come out over the next 9 years, once that first next generation treatment that is affordable to the majority hits the market we should see things move even faster.

  • Mr. Z

    Anyone else see the news that the Histogen trial was delayed until June? Dr. Ziering confirmed it in one of the forums. Also, was surprised to hear that when they were speaking of the start date, they were referring to when they would start recruiting patients, not when they would start the injections. So, there will probably be some considerable time spent getting trialists before they even do an injection.

    Kind of sucky news. Their first projections were that they would start trials back in the fall of 2010. That would’ve been nice, they’d probably have some decent data by this point. this will be almost an 8 month delay. So now we’re looking at the 2nd half of 2011 before they even inject. I don’t see anyway that they can even come close to a 2013 release…even if everything went without a hitch from now on; which is very unlikely. I’m guessing this will end up being a 2014 -2015 release, if all passes.

  • Jacob

    That’s disappointing Mr.Z, I wonder why they keep putting it back? I don’t trust them to start in June either at the moment.

  • rev

    WTF!!!

  • Ryan

    That’s pretty shit news, we seem to have hit a wall and nothing much is happening at the moment, I can’t be bothered going on hairsite anymore, all they seem to talk about is Dr Gho.

    It’s like we’re going round in circles.

  • rev

    Tell me about it.

    Hairsite’s an Armani/Gho fan-club, Histogen keeps postponing their trials, Aderans’ is still in limbo, and Follica’s more secretive than the Chinese Communist Party; even Daphne Zohar’s tweets seem more condescending than helpful.

    The overall lack of empathy in this business is disgusting.

  • Mr. Z

    Ziering also mentioned that the reason they have not released any of the “case studies” data, which presumably, they were going to update us on a few weeks ago, is because all the turmoil in Japan.

    I’m not sure what to make of that. But, i think my bullsh*t detector is starting to pick up a signal.

    I can’t believe that in all this time they couldn’t have recruited the patients already and have been set to go.

    Uggh, i thought 2011 would be a good year for information but, we’ll soon be halfway through it and have learned nothing new. Well, maybe that’s not true – i have learned that the latest crop of charlatans are up on hairloss research and know to use the words “stem cell therapy”. Oh, and have learned the Whitfield was a scam artist, and his product is crap. And Gho has a made a minor resurgence. But, outside of that, nothing. Depressing. I can’t believe i’m now putting Aderans as the odds on favorite to come through with something…and that’s not for 3 years. I’m not going to be able to hang on that long, damn it!!

  • Shooter

    I just wanna echo everyone else’s frustration. This is bullshi*.

    Thanks for nothing, Histogen.

  • rev

    I rested the majority of my hopes in Histogen, but these delays make very little sense.

  • dj

    I read that this isn’t the first time histogen has delayed trials… were they suppose to start trials in 2010? Did they delay before that too? Can anyone clarify? Should we expect another delay come June?

  • Mr. Z

    they were originally supposed to start trials in October of 2010. Since then, it’s been pushed back numerous times. I can’t believe it’s May 2011 and they haven’t even recruited the trialists. WTF???

    I’ve got to say, the situation is feeling a little hopeless. Histogen’s first experiments in human looked very promising. Which is why I was looking forward to hearing about these “case studies” which they dosed a few months ago. It was the first time i really felt confident with a company having something. I thought that if they are so confident in the product that they’ll do a quick side study just to confirm it and give us more evidence, then they must really have something. But now we’re getting excuses and no results. Which, of course, leads one to the obvious conclusion that they’re not showing results because their experiments didn’t work like they thought. I hope they prove me wrong

    I should’ve known. As soon as they starting touting this as the answer to hair loss and then claiming it’s gonna treat cancer as well.. I mean, come on. They’re sounding like every other “stem cell therapy” out there, QR678 for example. I continually get duped because i look at the credentials of people behind the work and assume that they wouldn’t push snake oil because they’ve worked hard, attended good universities, built a reputation etc.. I assume that they have some sense of morality and ethics guiding them. And you know what? It’s just not true. Money makes people do some F’d up stuff. Look at the hacks behind for QR678 — they graduated from Stanford med school for God’s sake. Look at Whitfield at Cambridge. I’m sure there are many many more.

  • dj

    Ok hold on Mr z. I haven’t heard numerous push backs from histogen.. when have been the others? Also what kingd of changes in the timeline have we seen from aderans and follica? I’m interested in hearing from someone that has followed this research for awhile and if they think this is a reasonable timeline change since a change from may to June is really just 30 days… I think we can hold out but I think what is really starting to set on is that they might change the date again. Anyone with extra info on histogen would be great… a press release explaining the setback would be best. Share your knowledge.

  • Shooter

    Hey dj, I’m not gonna dig everything up because I don’t have the time but Follica, Histogen and Aderans have ALL pushed back their timelines several times.

    Histogen was supposed to start Phase 1/2 in the middle of last year. It got pushed back to the beginning of 2011, then to Spring 2011, and now recruiting isn’t going to start until the summer.

    Aderans was initially supposed to release their product in 2005, then 2007, then 2009/10 and now 2014. There are numerous interviews all over the internet with this information.

    Follica, having never given an exact timeline, is not technically at fault, although there was one interview in 2007 where David Steinberg said “a couple years” and there was another interview in 2007 with Cotsarelis where he said 2-3 years. The Today Show also aired an interview in January of 2008 and an “expert” indicated that 2011/2012 would be the release date. Clearly they are not on track to release anything this year or next.

    Just dig up old press releases, interviews and annual reports from these companies and you’ll find an abundance of information on this.

  • Mr. Z

    Thanks, Shooter

  • dj

    Do you have histogens most recent press release? Ive been looking but can’t find it. Right now all I can say is that it is hearsay. Also… do you expect them to delay again in June? Is it this w case where they keep handing us false “good news” to appease founders and public? I’m not one to stick around to feed off bullisht and it seems with all the push backs you just said that that is exactly what is happening. Your thoughts. I’d like to believe it is moving forward but with history where it stands I will believe it when I see it.

    Ps is this irrelevant now? From their website: Upcoming Events
    World Congress of Dermatology
    May 24-29, 2011
    Seoul, Korea
    Dr. Jonathan Mansbridge to present “Clinical evaluation of hypoxic fibroblast secreted proteins to induce hair growth in androgenetic alopecia”

  • julian

    Shooter, as you said, Follica´s never given a timeline, at least directly, so we can´t say they´re not giving what they promised. As you remembered, Shooter, there´s this interview in which the 3-4-years-maybe-sooner so good to hear was stated. But even it takes a little longer it is within expected. I´m sure the thing will really happen when nobody´s expecting, just as all the great, and bad, things always happen. It´s always when we´re not expecting. Were you expecting when Rogaine was released? or Propecia? So, just calm down evrybody!!

  • A

    Sighs

  • Shooter

    When I get a little more time in the coming days I’ll add more to this discussion (because I think it is an important one). Julian raises a good point, though.

  • dj

    Sounds good… I’m just interested in the press releases/ blog/ website… wherever this new info came from.
    But again the may to June move isn’t a big move. I am excited to see any company go to trial specifically phase 2 and come out with any results, good or bad. I’m just wondering if the dates are just bluff or if they are taking them seriously. First a 6 month delay, then 3, now 1… next a week delay ;) just put a realistic timeline on it… but then again I work in the movie business and our deadlines are kinda a joke… always expect a 2/3 month extension at the end.

  • victimofdht

    Huh !! Never fails. Just like I predicted. I won’t be surprised if they push back the trials again, and again, and again, and the next thing they’re going to say is “in the next 5-10 years…” AS USUAL. I have no doubt in my mind these bastards ARE playing games. I mean why would you keep changing dates ? One time, ok. Twice, ok. 3 times and 4… NO. Changing dates like this makes these guys LOSE any credibility.
    When they keep changing dates that only means ONE thing – they have NOTHING. Just like when your mechanic keeps giving you different times to go pick up your car. It means he cannot figure out the problem. I think these guys DON’T have nothing. They keep giving us false hope and empty promises maybe to keep the investors coming and once they make the millions they want they’d just close doors.
    I mean WTF. Almost all of them have lied and still are lying about trials, release dates…. What does that mean ? This can’t be just by accident. This shows disregard to our feelings and most of all shows UNPROFESSIONALISM. These guys aren’t some small corner store.

    Yeah I know. I’m a pessimist, or so people call me. But at the end of the day look who’s right and who’s wrong. If there’s one thing I’ve learned in life it’s to NEVER have my hopes too high. The higher your hopes are the more painful your fall will be when you hit the ground (reality).

    Only if those bastards would keep their mouths shut and stop lying to us and giving us false hope UNTIL they actually have something -IF THEY EVER DO, which I don’t think they will. If any body comes up with a treatment I think it will be some other company we’ve never heard of.

  • Jordan

    I thought Dr Hizierg from Histogen said they would have results from a mini trail in 4 weeks time and that was about 4-7 weeks ago?

    WHY do they keep pushing it back?

  • KKwilliams

    I agree this is a bummer but so many people on here have such unrealistic expectations. If you want to blame the companies that’s up to you.

    Set backs will continue to happen. I never really expected a 2013 release date for histogen. until results come out that show their protocols are not working or not getting better results over their pre-clinical trial data I will not worry.

    Dr Ziering posting on another site that a possibly release date is 2014/2015. Hopefully people will not read that as jan 2014!!! It is much more likely their will continue to be setbacks and delays throughout the remainder of the phases/redtape/refining/opening clinics etc etc….

    we should all be glad we still have follica aderans and histogen all working various angles with “some” scientific basis to them.

    I dont think anyone here will turn down a new quality treatment if it arrives in 2017.

  • hairpaper

    hi, haven’t been on here in a while.
    to answer the question that has come up many times this last week, research has its hang ups. nothing would make histogen or follica happier than to have 100% success and make a lot of money now, now, now. at my company we regularly screen for anticancer drugs and sometimes new drugs that look promising flop out. or we find that some drugs or proteins that look very promising at first don’t reproduce well because of hang ups in production, synthesis. it’s just that simple. trust me, the major shareholders of these companies want results last week. most inventions in the lab go through a similar back and forth process.

    you wouldn’t hear about failures and other hang ups in academic circles because who cares if a PhD student takes 20 times and 6 years to get a genetics project right? happens all the time.
    with these public companies every hang up is perceived as a conspiracy, lie, etc.
    one of the top guys at my company (more businessman than scientist) stupidly wrote our board of directors that we had a new, great anticancer drug and that we’d be coasting along with it by this time. great, except the results were preliminary and one time which scientists at the bench couldn’t reproduce.

    i am sure histogen and follica are on the right track and have made progress. how impressive that progress is and how many more times there time lines will change is up to the biology. the inventions may be better than anything yet developed, but far from perfect. the presentation by Histogen scientists in May is probably the most worthwhile thing to visit for anyone dying to know the latest.

  • julian

    I agree with Hairpaper. When they´re ready, any of them, they will start to market and sell their product. I think we need to forget about it a little and that´s what´ll do myself. As I said, when we least expect is when the good news will arrive. It will be a surprise, as it should be indeed. So, bye bye!!

  • rev

    So it seems that Histogen’s delays are tied-in to Japan’s disaster. This was reposted on HS.
    ————————————————–

    Sorry for my absence but this is the latest “official word” on Histogen.
    We’re starting to recruit first week in June in Singapore, total of 50 pts. As a reminder each patient gets 8 injections of control and HSC anterior and posterior. The posterior gets a second set of 8 injections at week 6.

    There has been limited case studies going on in Japan but they have been hampered by all the events there.

    Unfortunately this stuff happens very slowly(which equally dissappoints and frustrates me ) and everyone has to be very careful with what they say and report because there are many people hanging on to every word. I know that many of my colleagues are searching for solutions and I am confident that we will bring help and hope to many hairloss sufferers but we have to be patient or we derail these projects before that really get going .

    I cant respond to this thread daily but I assure you I will update you and Spencer with any new worthwhile information that I get.

    I thank you all for your support,patience and interest.

    Best always
    Dr. Craig Ziering

  • KKwilliams

    I saw his post also. not sure what to make of it. Dr. Z disappeared for weeks and now this post.

    I never really thought or expected histogen to have a product to market in 2013 and now that is guaranteed to be the case. I think it is in all of our best interests to accept that there will undoubtedly be more delays throughout this process(regardless which company we are discussing)

    since histogen wont even begin selecting candidates until June what is a realistic possible release date? doesn’t it take like 5+ years to go through phases 1 through 3 in clinical trials?

    2016-2017 ?? if all the scientific basis and hsc solution hold up…that’s allowing for delays throughout all the phases.

    Imagine nothing comes until 2026 !

  • Joradn

    If nothing come in the next 4 years then i will get a HT fue until something better comes along.

  • Maverick

    @Jordan

    You can consider this.

    http://www.hasci.com/homepage.aspx

  • Jacob

    With nothing much happening I was wondering if anyone had any clue about how Follica will categorize their treatment? I was reading this other article on xconomy about the FDA and was surprised to read that

    “Companies that spoke to the FDA about running a clinical study for a low-to-moderate risk medical device, through what is known as the 510(k) regulatory pathway, said it took an average of 31 months to get their device approved in the U.S., compared with seven months for comparable applications in Europe. For higher-risk devices, it took 54 months here, and 11 months in Europe.”

    http://www.xconomy.com/national/2011/04/25/vcs-turn-up-the-heat-on-fda-to-get-faster-more-predictable-to-save-u-s-jobs/

    I’m sure I read quite a while ago that Follica could be categorized as a medical device, I just can’t remember where I read it, I also read this on Wikipedia about medical devices and it does sound to me like Follica could fall into that category

    “The regulatory authorities recognize different classes of medical devices, based on their design complexity, their use characteristics, and their potential for harm if misused. Each country or region defines these categories in different ways. The authorities also recognize that some devices are provided in combination with drugs, and regulation of these combination products takes this factor into consideration.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_device

    It was the part about being used in combination with drugs that made it sound like what Follica were planning. So does anyone else think this is how they were planning on getting through clinical trials faster than it would usually take? it looks like that to me, and if we’re lucky they could be closer to a treatment than we realise.

    I know it’s wishful thinking, I also think the average time difference of 3 years between the US and Europe for regulatory approval for high risk devices is shocking and shows the problems companies face in the US, the trial process has become an industry in itself and is wasting huge amounts of time and money unnecessarily imo.

  • ZZ

    Great pick up Jacob. I read that article as well and think it provides some better insight (actual numbers regarding the disparity) into why Replicel & Histogen are conducting trials elsewhere. Here is another quote from an Xcon article today:

    “This week’s edition of the BioBeat column talked about how quite a few VCs from around the country are putting pressure on the FDA to get faster and more predictable, especially in the review of new medical devices. This is almost certainly a story to be continued, as there is a lot of anti-FDA sentiment building out there in biopharma land, too, and the FDA is showing signs of being sensitive to the criticism.”

    The article you sited emphasized medical devices b/c that was the group highlighted for putting pressure on the FDA…they contend that the FDA is sending jobs overseas with their lack of urgency and consistency. But I believe the general principle applies to all types of approvals. Specifically with respect to Follica, I believe the approval time will depend upon exactly what small molecule or combination thereof is being applied.

    Also, just my opinion, but I am more optimistic than most regarding approval times. Most of the time people are talking about averages. Averages include many many drugs for very serious ailments where the clinical trials almost always show side effects (listen to the long list of disclaimers of almost any drug ad on tv) and where the benefit of the drug often appears to be marginal. A great majority of these drugs also require continued consistent use. So the FDA has a serious balancing act to evaluate. To date (and cross your fingers), I am not aware of any side effects mentioned regarding any of our prospects. And these possibilities are 1 and done or very limited application, applied to the surface of the body and not internally. So I believe there is cause for some optimism here and at least 2 of our prospects have stated that they did not think the approval process would be as arduous as normal.

    I am also not alarmed by Histogen’s delay..this is part of the landscape with what we are following. If we don’t hear or see of any good results by year end I will be concerned. I am still confident that we will have 3 or 4 trial outcomes this year. I don’t think anyone will sit on a breakthru. Let’s keep our head up.

  • Ryan

    Good posts Jacob and ZZ, I hope you’re both right about it being categorized as a medical device like Jacob said and there being some trial outcomes by the end of the year like ZZ mentioned.

    That difference of 3 years between Europe and the US for medical devices is amazing really, the FDA needs to get it’s act together.

  • happy1
  • Deluxe

    Hey guys (artista, shooter, rev!)

    No wonder I wasn’t getting e-mail updates, the page has changed. Anyhow, I’m currently one of the TRX2 users, completed month 2, going on month 3. Going to go for the full 6-months. Although I’m very well aware of what peoples perception of the product is on here, I was still willing to take a chance. Some other users have noticed slight changes, but we won’t know till six months, so I’ll keep you guys posted if I notice anything worth noting.

    Artista, have you had your HT yet? I remember talking to you about it. I recently had my 2,034 graft HT with Dr. Konior (Chicago) on March 2, 2011 and it was very smooth. He is a true professional. He was in the room the entire time and made the incisions and placed the grafts himself (stick and place method). I can notice some of the hairs growing in already (frontal-third). Very excited.

    I’m still looking forward to Histogen, Follica, and Aderans to complete the look, but reading many of these prior comments, it looks like the pessimitic cycle has struck. Keep your heads up fellas. All of these companies have motivation that WE can offer — MONEY.

  • washington

    new treatments in Asia… what you think?
    http://www.sparshclinic.com/sparshpage.asp?id=22

  • Shooter

    Happy1 – Those pics aren’t “new” per se. They were actually posted awhile back by Dr. Hitzig, who is now working with Dr. Niedbalski. I’m still not sure if I’m convinced by them.

    Washington – I have no idea what that clinic is… but those are some truly astonishing results. I’m calling a fake, although I would be really impressed if it’s real.

    Deluxe – Good to hear that everything is going well! Please keep us updated with the TRX2 treatment and your transplant. We can all learn a lot from your experiences.

    Let’s all try to stay positive while we wait for some more concrete ACell, Aderans and Histogen results… especially Aderans, who is our best hope for a near-term solution. Fingers crossed.

  • Jacob

    washington, I’m not convinced that is legit, the scammers are using stem cells as a selling point now so we’ll have to tread carefully. If it’s real then it’s amazing results, I just can’t see it though.

    shooter, I’m trying to stay positive and I can’t write Follica off without knowing where they’re up to. I’m hoping they’re further along than we think.

  • Shooter

    This is new. It seems that TRX2 is going to officially document the progress of several customers on their website. Anyone gonna do it?

    http://www.trx2.com/store/trx2-ongoing-customer-study/

  • Artista

    Shooter, i dont know just what to think of that at all. Time to research! Deluxe~ good to hear from you. No i have not had any type of HTs ..yet. I am keeping your suggestion to mind of course. Glad to hear that Dr. Konior is actually a ‘hands on’ doc. You must keep me informed as to your progress my friend. What Norwood scale were you at prior to the work? You live in the Chicago area too?

  • Happy1

    TRX seems more and more to be complete nonsence. An ongoing customer study?
    Are you kidding me?
    Shouldn’t you already have studies completed on the effectivness of your product BEFORE you place up up for sale?

  • Deluxe

    Hey Shooter. My transplanted hairs seem to be budding along with some of the shockloss hairs. As for the TRX2,I noticed the customer study about a week or two ago. Not sure how many people will partake in it since it seems to be a little time consuming. Much of the conversation and updates regarding this treatment is constantly being updated on The Bald Truth Forum under the ‘cutting edge treatments’ and then ‘TRX2?’. There you can find me and many others who are currently using the product, with some of the users who are about a month ahead of me. Some of the members have noticed slight fuzz and thin hair coming in around the temple region and are waiting until the 5 month mark to make any type of solid conclusions. I myself have ordered six-month supply (for a total of 9-month supply). They will also be releasing clinical trial results at around the third quarter (9/30/11). Keeping my fingers crossed on this.

    Happy1, I think that having actual customers involved and tell how its working for them is a great benefit to us the consumers…It could be to show their confidence in what they have. Not saying that this is the holy grail, but its better than not doing it at all.

    Artista, my pics from the HT can be found on The Bald Truth forum under “Deluxe” or “2,000 graft Transplant with Dr. Konior”. You will only find the immediate post on image on there. Prior to the transplant I would say that I have diffuse thinning all over, but I primarily have a Norwood 3A pattern. I have some slight thinning in the vertex the size of a quarter in the swirl region. Propecia has really helped me to keep what I have. I have also added Minox 5% (every night) and Nizoral 1% to the vertex only every 3-4 days. And yes, I am located in Chicago. Dr. Konior is not far away as he performs in Oakbrook. If you decide to go with an HT, I highly recommend Dr. Konior. He knows his stuff and he is a perfectionist. You should at the very least set up a consultation to see what he says (waiting time from now to meet hms is probably at least 3 months away). I have not found a single bad review of him.

    Anyway, it seems like yesterday we were chatting about follica and here we are about 3 years later…I really do hope histogen comes thru for us with this next phase 2.

  • Artista

    Deluxe,,thanks for the advice,,,i believe i will at least get consultation from him. Tell me,,shock loss hair grows back ,does it not? Now you say that people using the TRX2 product are starting to see some type of progress? my my my

  • Deluxe

    Artista, due to my miniturized hairs, Dr. Konior recommended that the ‘stick and place method’ would be the best for me. This method allows for least amount of shock to the scalp as tinier needles are used to make the incision. The incisions are also only made each time a graft is going to be implanted as opposed to the traditional method where all the incisions are made first and then the grafts are implanted. If you have very very miniturized hairs and they fall out due to shockloss, there is a chance they will not come back because they were weak to begin with…however, if they are still slightly strong, they will come back after 3-4 months. I didnt notice my shockloss until 3 weeks post-op.

    As far as the TRX2 is concerned, you must be aware of a few things. While there are a small number of people, mainly three months out, who have noticed that their shedding has slowed down if not halted, there is also a number of people who feel like this is not the case. It is important to note that the initial results of TRX2 will be noticed by different users at differnt timepoints i.e. at 3 months, 5-8 months, or even upto 12 months out. This is due to the variation in how the metabolism works in each individual (according to TRX2). People who have noticed some slight fuzzy hair in the temporal region are still awaiting for these hairs to turn into thick dark terminal hairs. While I’m only starting my third month, I have not noticed any cosmetic results in terms of regrowth (perhaps only more volume). I dont intend on seeing results for a while, if any.

    At about $80-$90/per bottle (for a 1 month supply of 90 capsules), I would NOT advise anyone to rush out and purchase TRX2 until some people who are currently using the product truly notice results, which will probably be in another 2-4 months. Also, by this time, the clinical study should be released as well.

  • Artista

    Deluxe, thanks for the insight. TRX2 is an interesting topic..lets see what happens .. I did see your post/op photos. How are the implants coming along now? They must make up for the shock loss as well,am i right? How is the donor scar ?

  • Deluxe

    Artista, some of the implanted hairs/shock loss hairs are about 1cm in length. I notice majority of them just starting to peek out of the scalp. The doctor was careful to place around the miniturized hairs, but yes for the most part the growth hopefully will give the illusion of coverage.

    In terms of my scar, so far it looks good. Keep in mind that my scalp laxity isn’t the greatest and the Dr. recommended that I wear a neck brace for the first 2 weeks of healing so that I don’t risk scarring. When I went back, he said that the scar was healing very nicely.

    I had a procedure done previously (1,200 grafts) by Dr. Panine of Chicago and the scar was not the best. Dr. Konior initially said didn’t want to go into the original scar and that he would create a new one because the scarring would make it very difficult to separate the grafts and the yield could be compromised. I expressed that I didn’t want two scars, but his logic was reasonable. However, at surgery day, he said he would remove the old scar so I would only have one. I dont know what changed his mind, but I think even he did not want me to walk around with that old scar and took it upon himself to fix the problem (btw, he has experience in plastic surgery).

    Anyway, things are looking good so far and I’m anxiously waiting the changed look. Time flies by quicker when you dont pay attention to your scalp all the time :)

  • hopeless

    hi guys I am very deflated about the further delays of even starting phase1 trials of hsc.

    I am currently $15k in debt and I need help.I can not get a job because I cant go to an interview because you cant wear a hat. I know that sounds stupid but I can not deal with my hairloss at all. I dont want to give up and I really want to start getting out of all this debt I am in and maybe even start saving up for hsc or whatever if it becomes available in 5 years.

    does anyone know if there are any type of government programs to help me get a job for the government? I dont even care if its minimum wage. I just want to be able to ‘hide’ and work. I know there are lots of programs to help people with disabilities, and well im serious messed up. I dont even know where to start. Im so terrified. I just want a job where i can go in everyday work hard and do my job without feeling horrible about myself the entire day. I have been trying to think outside the box in terms of jobs for right now but nothing that is anywhere near me seems like it will work for me which is why i asked about the government help program for people with phobias or severe anxiety due to a medical/emotional disorder.

    I am sorry I hijacked this thread but you guys make sense on here and hopefully have some thoughts.

  • Metsie

    Hopeless, how about working night crew at the local supemarket. They always need help.

  • Shooter

    Hopeless, I understand where you’re coming from. I used to be in your same position. Just a few things:

    1) This whole anxiety/depression thing WILL get a lot better. Trust that.

    2) It sounds counterintuitive, but shaving or buzzing your hair WILL help you (but you shouldn’t do this until you are ready).

    3) Think of construction jobs, delivery/packing/shipping jobs, jobs as a cook in a restaurant (they have to wear hats), internet jobs (where you can work from home remotely) or jobs in really low-key establishments like comic book stores or a boutique or something.

    Last thing, you don’t need the government. You can (and will) do this for yourself.

  • victimofdht

    Hopeless, I understand your situation, man. I maybe in a slightly better situation but the fear of hair loss and some other problems have completely ruined my chances of getting a good education or even getting a decent job. I’m not comfortable with my hair and I wear a hat too, which means you’re limited when it comes to finding a job. I’ve been working on my own for the past 5 years or so. It’s in the flooring industry. It’s shitty, hard and dirty job and hardly any money but I’m just surviving. The only advantage is I work for my own and can wear whatever the hell I want. If you can, you should find something in the construction industry. A trade or something. There are some jobs out there where you can wear a hat. Heck, drive a truck. Even a smaller one. I’ve seen mail men and UPS guys and even couriers wearing hats.

    I know you can’t get an office job but there are still some opportunities out there.

    I think for some of us, hair loss can be like any physical or mental disability and I think there should be some kind of a program to help people like that (to find work).

    I wonder how many men out there had their lives and future ruined because of this curse.

  • Artista

    Hopeless-you have already been given great advice here. We completely EMPATHIZE and feel your pain. I too am a hat wearer and i certainly dont like it. I can only say that these times will change. I have no doubt about that.

  • curious

    Just wondering about concerns of histogen being delayed because of Japan… I thought their trials were in Singapore. Is that correct? If so why would what happened/ is happening in Japan have any effect at all? Any thoughts?

  • ZZ

    Curious, I believe the reference to Japan is with respect to the “Limited Case Studies” or “Exploratory Case Studies” as referred to by Dr. Ziering. These are different from the upcoming trials. In the case studies (not sure how they get approval for them), they gave patients 50+ injections. They were supposed to be collecting data at about the time of the sunami in Japan. My assumtion, based on Dr. Ziering’s statements is that at least some of these patients were in Japan. The “Trials” will be in Singapore. Dr. Ziering had no obligation to disclose the existence or the timing of any results of the “Case Studies” so I have to take him at his word. If this link isn’t deleted you can follow Dr. Ziering’s comments at http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=4366&page=6 (starting at page 6 and then again at page 47) In general, with respect to all of the companies in trials, I believe if they have evidence of the “breakthru” we will hear immediately, however, if the results are disappointing, they may not be so quick to divulge anything. So the timeline I have on results is that we should hear about the the Case studies first (maybe within a month), Follica should know what they have in their trials by now although they seem least likely to release anything, Replicel will be gathering data in September and has said they will share the results, Histogen maybe late 2011 for an interim trial disclosure like they did last time; and who knows about Aderans. I believe their latest trail will be over by the end of 2011 but their lack of pictures to date, even though they have completed a Phase 2 study already, leaves me skeptical of their progress.

  • ZZ

    Replicel just launched it’s new website here:

    http://www.replicel.com/

  • Shooter

    Good find ZZ! Where did you see the information about Replicel releasing their results?

    Also, it’s very exciting to see Replicel explain exactly why their process is not susceptible to androgens.

  • lurker

    Hopeless,

    Couple things…

    Have you ever been dealt a tough blow in your life, and although it was horrible to deal with at the time, looked back on it years later almost positively?

    Most people have. It could be an illness, it could be failing a big test, it could be not making the team (look at Michael Jordan for that one), it could be a number of things.

    Sometimes, life hands us little mountains to climb, so once we’re on the other side, we can really appreciate the mountain and what we did to overcome it. What I suggest to you is do everything in your power to climb.

    Yes, it’s hard, it sucks. But, if a cure does come 10 years from now, you may look back on these days and appreciate what you did. Appreciate that you looked past that.

    In the meantime, although you may lose your hair, build on the qualities that hair has nothing to do with. So, when a cure does come, maybe 10 years down the line (maybe sooner), you will not only have your hair, but maybe have a college degree (a masters degree or a PhD), you may have be in much better physical shape than you otherwise would have been or you may be a hell of a lot more down to earth than you otherwise would have been.

    In summary, try to focus on what you can change. Change that. You “can” lose weight if you’re overweight. You “can” gain muscle. You “can” get a graduate degree. You “can” get advance your career. There’s a lot you “can” do.

    Eventually, you’ll have done all those things … and yes, eventually, you “can” get your hair back too… just not quite yet.

    Good luck.

    -Lurker

  • ZZ

    Shooter, In their 20-F regulatory filing in December, http://google.brand.edgar-online.com/displayfilinginfo.aspx?FilingID=7626326-55853-89758&type=sect&TabIndex=2&companyid=386723&ppu=%252fdefault.aspx%253fcompanyid%253d386723 they said “We anticipate collecting data from the 6 month time point in early September 2011. This data will allow for analysis of our primary endpoint of the study in the form of an interim analysis. Patients will continue participating in the study through early 2013 when the 24-month visits will be conducted.”
    They also said “We plan to launch a new website to communicate the status of our technology and progress in clinical trials.”

    I believe they expanded upon this in their previous website when they said that their new website would be coming in the second quarter of 2011. I believe they will be very quick to disclose any positive results as they are a publicly traded stock even though the insiders can’t sell any shares prior to the end of the first quarter 2012 at which time they get a certain % of their shares released from trust on a quarterly basis.

    The detail in this kind of blew me away. Like you mentioned, the part about androgen receptors, but especially the parts about the angle of hair growth and the even distribution of follicles. I had asked about these last 2 issues by email about 18 months ago and they said they did not know the answer at that time. Those were some the issues they hoped to find out in trials.

  • ZZ

    Lurker, That is an excellent post! My strategy exactly.

  • Shooter

    So my question is this… if the Replicel procedure (which is very similar to the Aderans procedure) can “prevent” hair loss from occurring, will the Aderans procedure (which will likely make it to market sooner) be able to do the same thing?

  • victimofdht

    Just a question. Let’s suppose that one of the 4 or 5 companies working on a hair loss treatment came up with an effective treatment, what would happen to the rest of the companies ? Would it be the end for them ?

  • ZZ

    Shooter, I’m not exactly sure whether hair grown by the Aderans method would be permanent. I have pieced together a crude understanding of the science of both methods by reading a lot of the research on this and my initial thought is that it would be permanent but here is a quote from Replicel’s patent: All attempts with DP cells (Aderan’s method)are only transient, whereas genuine stem cells having a lifelong possibility to proliferate..”

    If Replicel’s research is accurate, as set out in their patent, the big difference between the two methods is that the Dermal Sheath Cup Cell (DSC) used by Replicel “may regenerate all relevant structures of the hair follicle unit formed by the dermis”, whereas the Dermal Papillae cell (DP)cannot. My understanding is that the major practical difference here is that the DP cannot generate the dermal sheath and connective tissue. Since it can’t create the full hair structure it creates a weaker hair. I presume this may affect it’s ability to regenerate itself after 1 hair cycle. The other huge difference is that the DP does not migrate into a damaged or miniaturized follicle to repair it. Another interesting point is that if you remember the experiment by Jahoda http://www.hairroute.com/news/growhair.htm, where hair follicle cells were transplanted from a male’s head to a woman’s arm and grew, apparently exempt from rejection by the immune system…….it appears these were DSC cells. My understanding is that differences in the immune system are why much of mouse hair growth research doesn’t necessarily translate to humans. If DSC cells are privileged, this is another great sign.

  • Artista

    Lurker~ I must commend you for the superlative advice given to ‘Hopeless’. No one could have said it better and it is all so very TRUE. Hopeless, take those words to heart. Times will be better by following that ideology.

  • tk

    Dermal Sheath Cells are definitely the way to go. Gho has known this for more than 10 years already. DP cells have never worked. Well, DSC haven’t really worked in any HM type procedure so far either.

    Not too optimistic about Replicel. I’m far more excited about HSC. Gho is already doing a form of HM now, so by combining HSC and Gho’s HST, you can soon have all the hair you want, as long as you have the money for it.

    The great thing about hairloss is that it protects against STDs. You should all be thankful for this simple fact.

  • Mr. Z

    After reading through Trichoscience site, i have to wonder, what is going through the minds of management at Aderans? Probably something like “oh sh*t” . Unless they’ve somehow figured out a way to obtain better results from the dermal papillae cells, i think their foray into a cell based solutions is going to be short lived.

    Still hoping that Follica can show us something and maybe not have to go through the full blown trial process…but, that’s highly unlikely. My money is on Trichoscience to finally end the misery. And perhaps Histogen to come out a little sooner and give us something, though i have doubts it will grow a full head of hair. But, at this point, i’ll take anything…even if it slows it down

  • tk

    ARI is also using DSC according to Washenik. I’m pretty sure I read that somewhere.

    But it won’t work anyway. At least not in the foreseable future. I have very little faith in any type of cell based approach, except for Gho’s HST.

    Gho is still working on an injectable protocol, but it sure looks like it won’t be ready for a while. HST looks amazing enough anyway.

    Let’s hang on! We’ll have it all back in no time. Then we’ll have to worry about finding a cure to herpes…

  • A

    Hasnt Dr Gho been proved a fraud for years.

  • Ryan

    I try and avoid all the threads about Gho on Hairsite now, he hasn’t delivered anything that is of any use to the vast majority of people who are losing their hair. His method seems to be as useful as a concept car.

  • rev

    lol

  • Gabriel

    I have been using rogain since oct 1st 2010. I got back a lot of hair and I appear close to normal now. But I have been getting depressed with everything for past 1 month. The once enjoyed activities are not fun anymore, I cant concentrate at work. Simple things seem to put me in depression. I Strongly suspect Rogain for that. Anyone here experienced the same with Rogain.

  • victimofdht

    Gabriel, Rogaine has nothing to do with depression. Depression can be caused by a lot of things. Life itself is depressing. But anyway, I’d be willing to be depressed for the rest of my life if I could get all my hair back or even keep what I have. Heck, I think 3/4 of my depression would disappear if I could keep my hair since I know 3/4 of my depression is a direct result of my hair loss.
    BTW, are you using Rogaine brand minox and are you buying it on ebay?

  • onionbagger

    hi all, does everyone really belive what with latest advances ,and the race thats still on.that we are going to see real results over next few years possibly even full blown cure . i know they,ve been saying in 5 more years since time began, but there is a lot of competitors in the race now and big money involved plus companies are being very secrative . whos your money on for best results,or the holy grail.

  • Maverick

    @onionbagger

    It is tough to tell. From now days perspective Histogen has the best shot, but that does not have to mean anything. The solution can come from the firm or a country that is not even mentioned here. In life there are no guarantees. But, I am absolutely positive on one thing, and that thing is that we shall definitely see the solution, it is just pure logic.

  • Iwantsomehair

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/fashion/05SKIN.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss

    bernstein, a very reputable DR, has claimed that within the decade we will see comercially viable hair cloning treatments.

  • KKwilliams

    Iwantsomehair that is probably the 200th article ive read with some future deadline but offers promise of an impending cure or treatment.

    I dont put any stock in any of those articles. All I pay attention to at this point is data. Hopefully histogen and follica give us some more data by years end.

    just think abut how many 20 year olds that were reading similar articles and advancements only 5 years away !! back in the 1980s

  • julian

    Really liked this article! First thing I thought when I knew about Latisse was, as I suppose anyone would think, that if it makes eyelashes grow then it can make hair grow too. Then I read that it only grew eyelashes cause the structure of the follicles are different or something like that. Now it is clear that it works for hair too and the company is already testing it for that purpose. I don´t know about you guys but I´ll do this test myself! Who really knows if it isn´t stronger than Minoxidil? Nobody knows yet. I´ll know!!!

  • SashaBertal

    Hi guys,

    I lurk here sometimes, as I have a bald father and I am ridiculously paranoid about losing my hair, I’m 25 now and so far so good but anyway thought you would appreciate this seems like maybe, and i stress maybe things are looking up check this article out!!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1385392/Instant-baldness-cure-answer-bald-mens-prayers.html

  • Deluxe
  • Artista

    Deluxe,,the pics are VERY impressive. Thanks for posting this item. If ‘Mark India’ is legit, a real person and sincere, he could be onto something great. I wonder if he is a contributor here after all he did use the original Artista term “The Big 3” in that thread. hehe

  • herzog

    This man is using Propecia and Minox at the same time. His results are less impressive than mine were when I started using both of those WITHOUT QR678.

    I see nothing noteworthy here.

  • Artista

    The latest on ACell’s “Pixie Dust” news
    May 9, 2010
    “Pig powder- gets 2 thumbs up” http://www.omaha.com/article/20100509/NEWS01/705099851

  • Ryan

    That article is a year old isn’t it Artista?

  • herzog

    Yeah, it’s from last year.

    Guys, I’m going off minoxidil today. It been making my pours huge and giving me sad old man eyes. Sopping your head in a powerful vasodilator twice a day can make a man ugly. I gave up Propecia a year ago for sides as well.

    The good news?

    I’m buying a bunch of Latisse and going to give it a shot. I’ll take pics and document my experience with it over the next year.

    Should be a blast. :-\

  • Artista

    Oh my,,yes! My apologies to all. I was in such a hurry , i didnt realize it was from 2010. I had not heard of the thumb growth news (or i forgot about it more likely) excuse my haste friends. BUT, this is amazing science that will help us all in the long run..

  • questionable

    If the top companies collaborrated, would there be a cure? Also, would they make more money as a big company with a cure, or as small corporations with good treatments? Hmmmm.

  • Metsie

    Good question questionable. Im not sure how I would interpret a merger involving Atrista’s coined “big 3”. Simply because information is as scarce

  • JS

    I used to post quite often when this story first appeared on here nearly 3 and a half years ago. I genuinely thought at the time that Follica would be the answer we were looking for, but obviously since then there hasn’t been much evidence to back that up, despite that I still think they’ve as good a chance as any of the other treatments of being first to market. From what I’ve been reading on here we’ll be lucky if Histogen, Trichoscience and Aderans have anything by 2014, three more years is a long time imo.

    Jacob has made some good points in regards to Follica, and if they’re still planning on using a fast track through trials then I think they will get there first, being quite sad I check all sources for news regularly including twitter and that includes Daphne Zohar’s, I saw one post where she mentioned (one of the first things they do is a repeat experiment in a 3rd party lab, because many academic findings cant be reproduced), they seem too thorough to have gone into it not knowing what to expect, the good news is they are in trials so I’m still hopeful they’ll come through with the best solution.

  • victimofdht

    Herzog, where can you get latisse ? Can doctors prescribe it for hair loss now ? I heard it’s not approved by the FDA but I’m not sure if that means it cannot be prescribed anyway. I’m in canada and would like to know if there’s a way I can get that.

  • Ryan

    Nice to see you post again JS, there’s quite a few guys who were commenting on the original article who seem to have slowly drifted away, I think rev is the longest standing on here now.

    I agree with you about Follica as well, until they come out and say they have not been able to achieve what we hoped, then there’s as much chance of them coming through as anyone. I have major doubts about any of them bringing anything out in the next 2 or 3 years though unfortunately.

    Infact the only treatment I can see in the next few years are things that people are willing to try at home on themselves, like bimatoprost or as a long shot that astressin-B that people are showing an interest in on Hairsite, other than that I don’t think we’ll seeing much.

  • Herzog

    I’ll be starting bimatoprost in a couple weeks.
    Astressin-b needs to be injected and only spurred growth in mice under specific circumstances not made public (as far as I know).
    Astressin is also an anti androgen that screws with your hormones.
    I can’t imagine a more reckless or thoughtless self “remedy”.
    Still, I hope the Astressin B folks are able to synthesize something palpable.

  • Deluxe

    Herzog, here is a link to generic Latisse, which you should find relatively inexpensive:

    http://www.alldaychemist.com/936_Latisse

    The only issue is that the bottles come in 3ml bottles, so perhaps you may need to apply a couple of drops and spread with your fingers or swab.

  • hairpaper

    Follica’s first publication. I downloaded the paper and nothing hints at work done outside the scope of what’s mentioned in the abstract.
    Can anyone provide links to the known Follica patents? Thanks.

    Skin Res Technol. 2011 Apr 15. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-0846.2011.00508.x. [Epub ahead of print]
    Characterization and quantification of wound-induced hair follicle neogenesis using in vivo confocal scanning laser microscopy.
    Fan C, Luedtke MA, Prouty SM, Burrows M, Kollias N, Cotsarelis G.
    Source

    School of Biomedical Engineering, Science & Health Systems, Drexel University, Philadelphia, PA, USA Johnson & Johnson Consumer and Personal Products Worldwide, Models and Methods, Skillman, NJ, USA Follica Inc., 3624 Market Street, Philadelphia, PA, USA Department of Dermatology, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA, USA.
    Abstract

    Background: In vivo confocal scanning laser microscopy (CSLM) is a recently developed non-invasive technique for visualizing microscopic structures with the skin. CSLM has been used to characterize proliferative and inflammatory skin diseases, neoplastic skin lesions and pigmented lesions. Objective: Here, we assessed the ability of CSLM to evaluate the formation of neogenic hair follicles after a full-thickness wound in mice. Methods: Full-thickness wounds were made on the dorsal skin of 3-week-old mice. After scab detachment (SD), the number, width, length, space and volume of neogenic hair follicles were analyzed using CSLM. The results were compared with those from conventional methods, including staining for alkaline phosphatase (AP) and keratin 17 (K17) as well as histology. Results: Quantification of neogenic hair follicles using CSLM compared favorably with the results from direct measurements on isolated epidermal tissue after immunostaining for K17, a marker for the epithelial portion of new hair follicles. CSLM detected 89% of K17-stained follicles. CSLM more accurately quantified the number of new follicles compared with AP staining, which detects the dermal portion of the new follicle. The width and length measurement from CSLM and histology were very close and correlated with each other. The minimum length of a neogenic hair follicle that could be detected by CSLM was 21 μm. The space between neogenic hair follicles was decreased in histological sections compared with CSLM. Conclusion: CSLM is an accurate and valuable method for counting and measuring neogenic hair follicles non-invasively. CSLM produces images similar to histology in mice. Measurements of microstructures using CSLM more accurately reflect actual sizes as this technique avoids fixation artifacts. In vivo visualization of developing follicles with CSLM allows the detection of serial changes in hair follicle formation, thus conserving the numbers of mice required for studies and improving the detection of temporal changes in developing hair follicles.

  • Shooter

    Great find, hairpaper!

    But seriously, Follica. More mouse studies?

    We get it – you guys are AWESOME with mice. No one is disputing your prowess when it comes to making magical things happen on the backs of tiny murine mammals. Your point is well established.

    Now can we PLEASE start applying these techniques to humans already???

  • Zarko

    To Shooter,

    No :)

  • spyder

    “Can anyone provide links to the known Follica patents?”

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2011031990A1.html

    Filing Date: 09/10/2010

  • hairpaper

    Shooter – no problem. I’m on Pubmed every single day so I scope what’s out there even though it’s unrelated to my work. Congrats to Follica on their first publication. I’m hoping Follica Inc. didn’t purchase a confocal scope but they might have. Those things go for >$500K easy.

    Thanks spyder, I’m curious to see what methods they cover in the patent.

  • Maverick

    Here is some 5 months old news but from England. The spokesman was Dr. Besaam Farjo the man in charge of the ICX-TRC project done by Intercytex, now purchased by Aderans.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9MrBh3ujww&feature=related

  • lurker

    Question:

    Say there’s a full-fledged cure 5 years from now. And in this cure, every dormant follicle is awakened.

    My question would be, how would people with hair transplants look? If you received 2500 hair follicles in the top of your head (or more), how would those look with the hair that was previously missing sprouting up?

    I hope you see what I’m getting at. I’ve considered a HT to seal up my dying hairline, which will be 100% gone in a year or two. But, then I think about when there’s a cure, how dumb I’ll look.

    -Lurker

  • Mr. Z

    I have the exact same question, Lurker. I think i’m in a similar boat as you. I’m 39 and probably NW2.5, but, can see my hairline getting worse by the month. I think in 1-2 years i’ll have no hairline whatsoever. Using minox, miconazole and copper peptides now to try and halt it, but, have my doubts it’s going to buy me much time.

    It may be that you just end up with a really thick hairline. I don’t think it would be too bizarre looking, though it may make styling it a bit difficult. But, honestly, if those worries come to fruition, we will be in a very good situation : )

  • KKwilliams

    -lurker- I dont think you have to worry about a full blown cure or the awakening of every dormant follicle you have lost in the next 5 years. that type of advanced cure doesnt seem possible within the next 15 years

    -Mr.Z- If you don have work done i suggest being conservative. DONT try to get your original hairline back(placement) try just having your current hairline thickened or lowered 1cm at the corners. When you try and get back to much ground is when ht hairs limitations become most evident(the thickness and unnatural growth of each individual hair)

    I am curious to know IF and when histogen reaches the market if we would be able to laser remove ht hair first and then have histogen treatments. I fear that having laser hair removal might destroy the ability to regenerate old natural follicles.

  • happy1

    Here’s the latest from the good folks at Replicel:

    http://www.replicel.com/replicel-update-on-first-in-human-clinical-trial-ts001-2009/

    FYI: Sign-up for their email updates and you will know the latest before it goes to press.

    I really appreciate the flow of info from this company.

  • Shooter

    I predict that Replicel will stop providing updates around the same time they should start seeing results.

    That’s not because I don’t like Replicel, it’s just because that’s how things work in this industry.

  • curious

    Why do all companies seem to be testing at the same time? Domino effect? Any new news from histogen? They said they were going to start phase 1 in may (well, since the last push back)? I was also wondering about minox and any recommendations anyone has. I’ve been using for 4 months now and see little to no affect. There might be some loss actually but that seems normal even if I hadn’t been using it. I’m using it for my hair line (nw 2.5). Wondering if I should continue or not… think I will go to 6 months but would like advice as I’m not sure if I will lose more if I just stop or if it takes longer to see results. Thanks.

  • KKwilliams

    Shooter you took the words out of my pocket. Its beneficial for replicel to craete a buzz and company awareness but once data, positive or negative begins to flow they will tighten up on the info.

    curious, im sure the companies are trying to stay close together in their clinical research progress as no one wishes to be caught flat footed when there could be a somewhat beneficial new treatment coming from one of them in the next 5-6 years(not 2 as some like to believe )

    once you stop using it you will lose what you had kept or gained so better to decide early on whether you are committed mentally and financially to the undertaking of multi daily applications

  • herzog

    curious –
    Minoxidil has mixed results for people. I found it slowed my hairloss pretty well. What I didn’t count on was that the vasodilator aspect of the drug widens the pores on your face, removes the collagen from your face and gives you a sort of craggy\old man look that is difficult to reverse. The skin around your eyes starts to sag. Slowly and subtely for sure, but you are simply not as fresh faced and healthy looking after using minox. There’s a lot of discussion about this problem online.
    It makes you look old.

  • lurker

    curious –

    I’ve also use rogaine. I think it slowed my hairloss a bit. I’ve been using for 5-plus years. After a while, it’s effectiveness seems to slow. But, I will say I have not noticeably experienced the side effects herzog mentioned.

    That said, I tried Saw Palmetto and experienced horrid sides. So, I know I shouldn’t try Propecia. Because the sides I experienced from Saw Palmetto would almost certainly worsen with Propecia.

    If I were you, I’d keep using Rogaine. It can’t hurt. Hope that helps.

    P.S. As a side note, I think there’s something to be said about all drugs having side effects. I believe they do. Rogaine most likely does. I believe Propecia definitely does. I also don’t think these sides, particularly propecia-sides, are a joke. There for real. But, I also think that people on here (including myself) tend to be more introspective and self-critical than the average person. Meaning, I believe if you’re going to get propecia or rogaine, you’re already someone who scans yourself (and somewhat vain) or someone looking for problems or deficiencies. So, although I think sides are 100% real and can be very, very awful, I also think internet sites aren’t the best place to gain information on the likelihood of them occurring.

    I firmly believe if a hairloss cure was made today, the majority the people on this board (including myself) and boards like it would be focusing on fixing a new problem within a year (be it weighloss, a skin rash, etc). Lot’s of people aren’t like that.

  • julian

    curious, keep your Rogaine treatment. You´ll not regret it. what makes you look old is baldness and Rogaine prevents it. I´ve been using it since 1991 – twenty years!!! when I started losing my hair and never had any side effects. Rogaine saved my hair when I was 18 and pretty much of it by now, if it wasn´t for it I´d be completely bald today, no doubt about it.

  • Herzog

    Curious,
    Investigate what I brought up. It’s information you can use while making your decision.

    Julian – you may be fine with how you look today but your face would no doubt look fresher and more youthful if you weren’t dousing your head in a potent vasodilator twice a day for 20 years. Your pores are larger than they would be and your collagen level is lower than it would be if you weren’t using minox. Yes, it maintains hair. It does other things too. This shouldn’t be a big surprise, especially since they don’t know how or why minoxidil works. The drug was developed as a high blood pressure medication.

    As men, we don’t typically notice or care about these kinds of details. They are there none the less. Vasodilators lower collagen and open pores. That’s essentially the effect of aging, only minix does it quicker.

  • Lurker

    Herzog,

    Can you explain how exactly a vasodilator that you place on the top of your head, or perhaps only in the back of your head, is going to effect the skin on the front of your face?

    Does it also effect the skin on your neck? How about your shoulders? How about your feet? I think you see what I’m getting at.

    I think you’re probably right, it probably effects the area, but where’s that area end? I think the “aging” most likely takes place in the area (or close by the area) where the substance is applied.

    I’m not saying you’re not right, you probably are. But, I also think you may be slightly exaggerating the effects on the average person.

  • Herzog

    Systemic uptake will have a localized emphasis.
    If you dump a chemical on your head daily it will effect your “head area”, to whatever degree. Your face is on your head so…

    People can do whatever they want. Minoxidil definitely works to keep hair from falling out. The action by which it works also inhibits collagen production a widens pores. Systemically, this includes the face. Over a year, two years you would notice a difference if you compared yourself to a “control” version of yourself. You get Robert Mitchum eyes. I work in the fashion industry and you see it all the time. You don’t have to believe me. It could very well be that both versions of yourself are good looking enough, so you can stick with the one that uses rogainr and has nicer hair. But we recommend the guys at our agency don’t take it. Even young models with thick hair want thicker hair but we can always tell. The photographers can always tell and the makeup artist can definitely always tell. We recommend propecia although I personally wont touch the stuff.

    Anyway, sorry to be a bummer. Like I said, I’ll be tying latisse for AA in about 2 weeks. I’ll log my progress and hopefully it works.

  • Herzog

    Ps: try this experiment…

    Stay off minox for 4 days, then get back on.
    The morning after you put it on, raise your eyebrows to create wrinkles on your head. They will feel rigid and stiff. Kind of like when your hand is freezing from being in snow. After you warm up your hand, the skin feels thick when you make a fist. That’s what happens to your head and face. Collagen is drawn away from the head from the dilation. This takes it’s toll after doing it day in and day out.

  • julian

    Herzog, I can assure you my skin is great for my age. My pores are normal, nothing wrong. I don´t have Robert Mitchum eyes too. I don´t wanna brag cause I hate this but I have to say that I look much younger than I am. People, and I mean everybody that meets me, always think I am about 25 years old, some even give me less… well, I´m 38. When I say my age they always gets surprised, some don´t believe me, ask for my ID, these things… I´ve been using Rogaine for 20 years and WONT stop until something better gets out. I stopped it in the past, some 10 years ago and it was when I noticed my hair diminished after two months or so without Rogaine. Then I never stopped anymore, except for some time when I used only finasteride and didn´t see any changes. I didn´t have any of the side effects associated with finasteride too. I´ve used both together as well for a while and it seems to work the same way. And I am really being honest with you.

  • julian

    you may say I´m lucky, but maybe I´d really be if I didn´t need to use it, never. But I think that almost everybody who started losing hair by the time Rogaine was launched, late 80´s, early 90´s, and after that off course, I mean, men who were 18 by that time, are lucky. Think about your father, grandfather… Before Rogaine, there was nothing, NOTHING!! I´ll start using Latisse, take TRX2 capsules too. I use anything that looks promising and shows results. I will never be bald, I wouldn´t know how to live, I´d prefer to die and I will not die bald, I will die with my hair and will take it to my grave with all the rest or being cremated or whatever but my hair will be with me until the end. I HATE baldness, it´s ugly and depressing and it will stay alway from me forever!!!!!!!!!

  • curious

    @kkwilliam – exactly what I’m trying to do… figure out whether or not to continue. Right now I’m having mixed feelings since I haven’t really seen any results (or anything that I would call results).

    @lurker – how did rogaine help the front hairline? I tried saw palmetto too, I’m in to natural remedies for ailments if they exist but experienced the same side effects (much lower libido). It was almost day and night and I think that was after a month. I didn’t stick around to see any results. Hearing about the sides of Fin scares me enough that I’d rather live life with no hair than no sex.

    @Herzog – I’m interested in hearing more about your experience with minox. I haven’t noticed any dark spots on eyes yet but that is definitely not something I want to mess with and adds another reason to stop using it. I actually have pictures to prove this as I have been documenting my growth (with smartphone pics). The last 3 months or so I have been buzzing my head with a number 1 clipper so that I have similar length hair to compare to. If any of you are interested in seeing results I can share but I’m trying to collect 6 months of photos to create a time lapse. Questions for you: How long did you use it until you noticed black circles? Did you get any hair regrowth while on minox for your hairline? To add to your vasodilator comments I have noticed that it does feel like someone punched me in the cheek bone when I use it. Not hard but like I got hit there the day before. If anything working 10 plus hours a day, 6 days a week is what is giving me dark circles under my eyes… I actually think this is contributing to my hairloss too.

    @julian – You’re 38 and look 25? Damn! Congrats man, I think you have beat aging and hairloss! I don’t know how much hairloss you have but I know a bunch of people who are close to 40 and are at nw3 and maybe creeping towards a nw4 that I still consider having hair. I know we all want to have the premium hairline that we used to have but I think if I hit 40 and still have a nw3 I’ll be quite happy. I’m happy that minox worked for you. Regarding your speech about death, I’ve noticed a few people on the forum talk about it, and it is really heavy that you consider life ending without hair. Maybe because I’m only 25 I have more of a sense of optimism but I really hope that IF the day comes that I need to let it go I can shake it off and let it go. I have the same fears as everyone here but see life beyond my hair, I hope you do too. Keep your head up man. I’m at a nw2.5 and I’m planning on being bald by 30 (it may be in my head but that is what I’m planning for so I can keep moving on)

    I appreciate all of everyone’s comments… except the people who keep pushing back the “cure release date”. Just kidding, but seriously… I think someone put us back to the whole “in 5 years” again. Hearing that makes me want to stop using minox – it personally gives me too much false hope and would rather refocus my energy than be applying the chemicals twice daily for life thinking “just another 5 years”.

    Your thoughts are appreciated.
    ps. everyone that posts is badass. I don’t post a lot but that’s because you all keep me well informed. THANKS!

  • tk

    @julian
    Watch for the hyperbole, pal. Some people are dealing with the real shit here (minox and propecia no longer working so well), and reading your post certainly isn’t helping us. Not that you’d understand.
    Hopefully HST will work and our sorrows will soon end… (But somehow I think it will take much longer than we believe…)

  • victimofdht

    Herzog, sorry man but I’ve been on minox since around 1995 and people at least up to a few years ago used to think I was 7 years younger than my real age. Even recently two different people thought I was 5 or 6 years younger even though the past several years have been pure hell for me and it shows on my face and it gave me a whole lot of grey hair. So, I don’t think minox in any way affects your looks or make you look older.
    But I would take looking older any time over looking balder. Unfortunately, minox doesn’t completely stop hair loss but it’s still worth every ounce.

    Yeah, I hope someone comes out with a treatment before I lose all my hair because I feel a part of me die every time I lose more hair.

  • victimofdht

    TRX2 IS TOTAL BS AND A SCAM. Just saying.

  • Herzog

    It’s clinically proven to inhibit systemic collagen production. I’m not saying you dont “look young”. I’m saying you would look even younger if you didn’t take it… hair not withstanding. This is a risk people should know about. Regardless of what decision they make.
    Keep taking it. No one is stopping you.
    God this thread is a bunch of immasculated whiners.

  • lurker

    @curious

    I’d say it helps a bit on the hairline. But, I would not say it helps much.

    @herzong In a sense, I feel as though I have a control self. My older brother is six years older than me. I’ve watched him lose his hair. I’m 30, he’s 36. At the age of 30 he was a Norwood IV. He’s now a V. I’m a Norwood II/III. I think by his age I’ll be a III/IV. Anyway, I feel as though my face has looked as young as his has all along and I know he doesn’t take Rogaine.

    Anyway, my point in mentioning this is that I only use Rogaine. Every other product I’ve tried gave me sides I couldn’t live with. I believe, maybe incorrectly, that Rogaine is the reason I have more hair at this age than my brother did.

    That said, I do believe after time the positive effects of Rogaine slow. I think I’m hitting that stage. Meaning, I think I may bald a bit quicker over next few years.

    I’m just hoping something comes in the next four years. Because I will most likely be a Norwood IV by then, and probably be forced to shave my head. I’m very scared of HTs. But, I’ve talked to my wife about getting one. She looks at me with disgust when I mention it. I think she doesn’t like the cost and she’s scared I’ll end up looking like a freak.

    I would be fine with buzzing my head if I had the right shape. I kinda got an alien head though, where it sticks out a bit in the back. Oh well, I’ll do it if I have to. Rather do that then live with the monk look.

    For now, I’m going to wait.

  • Lurker

    @herzog

    Are you seriously throwing around insults on a thread discussion? Really? Settle down.

    People are allowed to disagree.

  • julian

    That´s why people always consider shaving their heads… cause the bald hair style is really UGLY, it´s like a horrible haircut… imagine when you were a teen and if you went to the barbershop to cut your hair and he shaved your head only on top, how´d you feel about that then?! and this for the rest of your life, it wouldn´t grow back again and the nightmare would end in 5, 6 months, wont grow back nevermore!!!!!!!!
    that´s what baldness means!!!! IT IS SHIT, MAN… REAL SHIT!!!!!! let´s see:

    tk: pal, sorry if I hurt your feelings, man. I completely agree with you, and what I just said above is proof that I know it´s a shit. My post will never help nobody, pal. What will help us is one of the companies finally have a product ready to put in the market. Yes, my fingers are crossed for Histogen, Follica, Aderans, Replicel… and any firm struggling for a cure, and I really hope one of them hit the pot right now!!!!! and I think it will be sooner than most of us believe!!

    Herzog: you say that it’s clinically proven to inhibit systemic collagen production. where? by who? Rogaine is available over the counter, I guess it woundn´t be if it is so harmful. I wonder How young I´d look not using it: 15? I´d be a teenager if I´d not been using it!!! the only thing I don´t like about Rogaine is that it leaves your hair a bit oily, just that, but after it dries it looks better. My decision is NOT GETTING BALD!! that´s what it is! and… bunch of immasculated whiners?… well, you work in the fashion industry, as you mentioned. A very manly work for sure!!!

    victim: thanks, but too late man!, I´ve already bought the TRX2 capsules… well, will try it anyway; won´t throw it away now!

    lurker: Rest assured, if you´d not been using it, you´d be even balder than your brother maybe!!!

  • julian

    curious: sorry, I missed your comment. Thanks but I didn´t beat them, aging and hairloss. But I will never give up, I will never be fine with them, especially hair loss! about my “speech” about death: first of all, I was kidding man! sorry if I didn´t mean it. I think this way: some people look better with hair than bald, some people look better bald than with hair (Yul Brynner was one of these), some people (MOST) are ugly either way. some people´s hair is beatiful; some people´s hair isn´t. some look good with a hat or cap, some not… Well, if you´re ugly anyway, FUCK IT!! you´re damned anyway, so you shouldn´t bother really. If you look good bald, you´re kind of lucky in fact; you just have to shave it and will even save money with shampoo and haircuts. If your hair is wiry or if you look like a porcupine then your hair loss isn´t to be regreted to much, don´t you agree? but if you look better with your full hair and it is beautiful, then it´s pretty much obvious that you´re at loss. That´s how I see it, with logic! you´re planning on being bald by 30?! good plans!! I don´t know if I say that I hope you succeed or not, tell me! But I always see things with humour; an example: I think that God, when forced Adam (and Eve off course) out of paradise ´cause they´d sinned, said to him: “NOW YOU SHALL HAVE TO WORK HARD TO GET FOOD, AND YOU SHALL AGE AND DIE IN THE END!!… But I really think, although it´s not written, that He also said, and laughed, while Adam was leaving: HEY ADAM, I ALMOST FORGOT, AND YOU SHALL GET BALD TOO!! THAT´S HOW CURSED YOU ARE!…

  • questionable

    Seems they found the cure for cancer, but big pharma feels a cure with no patent =no money. So nobody is willing to develop it. Makes you wonder if a drug can already stop AGA, but since its not under patent nobody will develop it. Thats why these companies are focused on growth “treatments” and not stopping AGA. For some of us if we could stop baldness now, a transplant will easily give us back a full head of hair. (The canadian papers have the story on the potential cancer cure if any of you are wondering what i’m talking about).

  • A

    Settle down children

  • gmonasco

    “Seems they found the cure for cancer, but big pharma feels a cure with no patent =no money.”

    Nobody has found the “cure for cancer.”

    See http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/05/the_dca_zombie_arises_again.php

  • Questionable

    Damn that sucks. I wonder why there isnt more research going into beta catenin and lef-1, or l-threonate. They all have potential, and tumors only grew with beta-catenin because they didnt stop it. What if they could? I hate hairloss!

  • victimofdht

    Herzog, how does saying we don’t think minox make us look older -BASED ON OUR OWN EXPERIENCE TOO- make us “emasculated whiners” ?? Do you have a new definition for the word “whiner” ?
    Like I said, people tell me I look a few years younger than my age and that’s good enough for me. And what’s the point of looking younger -because I didn’t use minox- when I have NO hair -also because I didn’t use minox- which anyway will make me look 20 years older ??

    Julian, I’m as desperate as you are if not even more desperate than you to keep my hair but that TRX crap sounded like a scam from the very moment I heard about it. Even the so-called inventor looks like a crook who wanted to make a quick buck on the backs of people in our situation. The SOB still has NOT provided any evidence that his crap works. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be any useful products to fight the curse of hair loss except the ones we’re already using -minox and Fin. But let us know if you feel it’s doing anything good for you.

    Also, I have a shitty type of hair but I prefer any kind of hair to no hair. To me, baldness = disfigurement. I would never go for the shaved head look either. It might be ok for people who have round heads but still it looks weird.

    I too believe baldness was a curse from God to make man’s life as miserable as possible. I’m not just saying it. I do believe it. When you look at the number of men with this disease you just can’t help but come to the realization that it is a curse.

  • lurker

    Baldness was not a curse from God. That’s ridiculous.

    As an aside, can we please keep this discussion on topic. Not go off topic like taking the “poor me”, or “calling other people names” approaches so easily seen at other bald-discussion boards. This has always been a good place for information, let’s all make a conscious decision to keep it that way and not let our blooming insecurities evolve this into hairsiteII.

  • julian

    Oh my god!! it was just to kid a little! c´mon!! and off course it is ridiculous, it was supposed to be!! this is a good place for information, when there is information. But it is for discussion too, and that´s what we´re doing, politely as it should be, I think.

  • tk

    Don’t we have sort of a cure already?

    If you get HSC done when it’s released to beef up whatever you have left, and then fill the rest with Gho’s HST, hairloss shouldn’t be a problem anymore.

    I think it is now only a matter of time and money. So start accumulating lots of cash, or learn stocks and options trading, and prepare for your exit.

    If you have 100 000$ in the bank, you’ll have hair in 2-3 years. So start working now!

  • questionable

    If they come up with a cure for baldness, im gonna shave my head. If a girl rejects me, or if someone makes fun of me for being bald, im gonna grow my hair out and say “Suck it.”

  • victimofdht

    tk, a $100,000 hair loss treatment is like no treatment at all. How many people do you think would be willing to spend that kind of money on their hair ?

    questionable, that sounds good. I hope the day will come when bald people can give those who look down on them the middle finger (once they can get their hair back).

  • tk

    Gho already has close to a cure if you have the money and time. HSC might be amazing, but you’ll need a lot of plane tickets to get it done, even if the price is low.

    If you’re anything over NW 4, I doubt you’ll get a full head of hair under 50 grands. Seriously, some people are paying as much as that now for crappy HTs.

    Save your money and don’t be sorry. I know I am.

  • rev

    Could we please take a break from Gho, and talk of $100,000 treatments?

  • Ryan

    Well said rev, Gho is a joke and any company that’s even thinking of charging as much as some of you are talking about is in for a serious disappointment, the majority of men can not afford to pay the price of a car or if some of you are to believed a house for a cosmetic treatment, it’s delusional to even talk about some of the figures being discussed.

    As soon as one treatment comes out others will follow not far behind, and if the first one prices people out of getting it then they will be blown out of the water by the companies coming behind them. Any sane company would price it so it reaches as many men as possible straight away.

  • rev

    Precisely; there’s more money in volume sales. Gho’s treatment cannot be scaled for volume while $100,000 treatments would yield limited market penetration.

    You need a low point of entry if you intend to reach the masses. Histogen was bouncing around the $5,000 figure for its treatment. That price-point’s more inline with the disposable income of your average Joe.

  • tk

    It’s all great if you can afford to wait, but the treatments will be expensive at first.

    Gho is far from a joke. If his HST was cheaper, people would be flocking to it. Right now if you have significant hairloss, only 30 000$ will make a difference.

    Getting HSC done in Asia will also be pretty expensive, if only for the plane tickets. So if you are going for multiple treatments, things start to add up. And chances are you’ll still need HST or FUTs after that.

    If you afford to wait until HSC is available in the US, you’ll have to wait about 3 extra years.

    The idea that a NW5 will get a full head of hair for under 5000$ in the next 3 years is kind of a dream. You guys are setting yourselves up for a major disapointment.

    As for me, I’m already saving up for Gho’s HST, but won’t get it done before I get a shot at HSC. I’ll go straigth to Asia to get this done.

  • rev

    So you’re saving to see Gho…. good luck with that. Now please stop talking about him on this forum. Gho’s brand of nonsense belongs on Hairsite along with Armani’s shill brigade.

    I seriously don’t give a flying fakk.

  • tk

    rev,
    You reply is borderline impolite, and reminiscent of the jerks at Hairsite.
    Let’s keep this place cool headed and open to any possible treatments. If you have a personal vendetta againts Gho, fine. But don’t bring it here. Some people here SUFFER TREMENDOUSLY and are looking for any possible treatments, even if expensive.

    For anyone interested in Gho’s HST, please take a look at these pictures of Wesley Sneijder:

    http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=65123

    So let’s all keep in mind that there is a cure out there, although expensive and unpractical.

  • rev

    You remind me of Iron_man from hairsite.

  • tk

    I don’t know Iron_man, I don’t read hairsite anymore. Too much petty fighting. It’s a very childish atmosphere over there.
    Anyway, I understand Gho is a taboo to you, and I respect that. Let’s agree to disagree and not turn this place into hairsite.
    Take care!

  • A

    Apart from 1 photo in 20 years could you please link to another photo showing Dr Gho to be effective in anyway, i mean no disrespect but i believe him to be a fraud and liar. This opinion is my own, and based on the years of following him, if things have changed im sorry but i feel one photo in 20 years is not that great.

  • victimofdht

    Yeah, I don’t think a new treatment if it comes out will only be around $5000. People pay that much for a stupid nose job. Something that will dramatically change your appearance (from bald to a head with hair) will most likely cost more than that at least in the beginning and until it becomes widely available or more companies start offering other treatments.

    But I hope the day will come when a hair loss treatment will be as easy and available as a flu shot.

  • hairpaper

    The story on Latisse is interesting. A drug with the unwanted side effect hair growth.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Hypertrichosis+of+vellus+hairs+of+the+malar+region+after+unilateral+treatment+with+bimatoprost.

    Interestingly, that hair growth is listed as a side effect –
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimatoprost

    Expensive stuff, but I’m sure that’s the price set in place to recoup on R&D (and make a lot of $). Anyone know of a cheap but reliable source for this stuff?

  • Herzog

    hairpaper,

    I ordered a bunch from alldaychemist.com

    Only 10$ a bottle. Plenty of people online vouch for them, and they responded quickly to an inquiry I made about shipping.

    Plus, they are out of India which, in my experience, is a little more reliable than ordering meds from China.

  • hairpaper

    Herzog,

    Thanks, I will check out that site. I guess that site has a good reputation and been around a while?
    That’s interesting. Where I work we’ve also had good deals on bulk chemicals from India and the final products wind up working as good as the flashier packaged local stuff (which are probably manufactured in India).

  • hairpaper

    Oh, and Herzog, almost forgot – if you’re willing to please post the results of the Latisse.

  • rev

    Now we’re talking. I’m tempted to try some of that generic Bimatoprost as well.

  • Dex

    Hey Guys…I’m 22 and am just starting the fight against genetics. Right now my hair is still thick but over the past 6 months my hairline specifically on the left temple has dropped significantly. Any recommendations to try and slow this thing down? I’m considering starting Minoxidil, and probably wont risk taking Propecia. Anything else that has worked for you guys?

  • spyder

    No rev, Wesley Sneijder doesn’t need generic Bimatoprost or any other topical medication anymore for eventually some peach fuzz hairs.

  • rev

    Over a decade of HM promises, and Gho’s best results are summed up in Wesley Sneijder… someone whose hairloss could easily be resorted to it’s current state with conventional HTs performed by virtually any competent HT doctor

    This isn’t hairsite, so let’s skip the Gho crap.

  • Ryan

    Wesley Sneijder is also earning more than $200,000 a week, he can afford to humour Dr Gho. Like rev said leave the Gho stuff for Hairsite, he isn’t going to help us.

  • spyder

    How about Follica’s stuff? Follica has recently shed more light on hair re-growth invention.

  • ZZ

    FYI – Interesting research:

    http://keck.usc.edu/en/About/Administrative_Offices/Office_of_Public_Relations_and_Marketing/News/Detail/2011__spring__usc_researchers_learn_how_hair_stem_cell_populations_communicate

    This builds on previous research. To summarize: The scientists found that hair stem cells coordinate their regeneration with each other with the aid of a pair of molecular activator WNT and inhibitor BMP. When WNT and BMP signals are used repetitively among a population of thousands of hair follicles across the entire skin surface, complex regenerative hair growth behavior emerges via the process of self-organization. The research team found that hairs, even in normal mice, regenerate in waves, rather than individually. The findings suggest that hair stem cells are regulated not only by the micro-environment within one hair follicle—as has previously been thought—but also by adjacent hair follicles, other skin compartments and systemic hormones, in a hierarchical order.
    At the molecular level, the findings showed that periodic expression of Bmp in the skin macro-environment appears to be at the center of the mechanism for coordinated hair stem cell activation. When many hairs regenerate, they must communicate activation signals among themselves. At different time points the macro-environment can be either permissive or suppressive for stem cell activation.”
    I wonder if this has any positive implications regarding the application of HSC, Follica, etc over the entire scalp as opposed to in just a 1 cm test area?

    Also, James, do you still follow this blog? We haven’t heard from you in quite a while.

  • Artista

    Great article ZZ -thanks Research has never been this deep into the workings of hair and hair loss. The advancements are amazing.

  • Shooter

    Great find, ZZ!

    I’ll just echo what Artista said. I’ve never seen as much meaningful research being conducteed as there is now.

    I saw this http://www.forhair.com/Articles/Clinical_Applications_of_Acell.htm on another website and not sure if it’s been posted here. Anyways, it appears that Dr. Cole has seen up to 54% re-growth of FUE extractions using ACell!

  • spyder

    Even Cole has 100% – WHAT’s so exciting?
    And why 54%? Why not 51% or 55.5%? Has he invented that number to lure more people into the chair, in his fear to lose clients?

  • questionable

    Any updates from any companies yet? I know the cause of mpb. But noone here including me is willing to treat it. Life’s dilemmas.

  • ZZ

    Shooter, That’s more good info regarding acell….and from a third source that seems to be focusing in on the details. I’m hoping acell injections might be a good short term solution to help maintain w/ maybe some slight regrowth until one of the big guns makes it to market.

  • hairpaper

    Has anyone had luck with any drug company in India and/or China in supplying generic drugs? I am interested in Bimatoprost but ideally I’d want access to the powder form, in case the 0.03% solution isn’t all that effective.

  • zach

    good find zz. I am not a science person. does that article imply that the results increase over larger areas? basically i mean if they are able to use hsc for example on a small ares the results would cause other hairs to activate further outside the injection site. like a cascading positive result?

    I cant wait for the next phase of hsc results to get here. If they can produce the same 57new hairs/cm squared over a larger area that would be incredible. I would pay $5000 for that treatment in a heartbeat

  • stayhair

    @hairpaper
    Ask the guys at hairlosstalk. They have experience. In this area. They also dealt with ru58841, asc-j9 and now cb0301. Good luck and keep us updated.

  • hairpaper

    Stayhair

    thanks very much. From a chemist friend of mine I know that there are absolutely companies in China that make product as good or better than over here, for much cheaper. If the guys at hairlosstalk have a credible source that’d be great. I’ll check it out and hope to be on the stuff soon. Best

  • ZZ

    Zach, I’m not sure they really know what the practical effect of this will be yet but I think that’s the right question to ask. A small area, as you suggest, may cascade out from the injection site and there may be possible evidence of this in some of the reports with acell where a transplanted hair dipped in acell apparently caused new or strengthened hair in the immediate area. But I was wondering about the flip side. If they are testing in small 1 cm areas, the positive benefit of the injection would still be competing against the negative environment of the overwhelming majority of the scalp. There might be great synergy once they treat the whole scalp so that any benefits seen at 1 cm might be greatly multiplied. Time will tell.

  • Artista

    Synergy Is right ZZ. Acell is such an amazing breakthrough based on its own merits, and Acell has only just begun relatively speaking. I’m always surprised to find that no one I know really have a clue of Acell’s accomplishments or even its existence.
    .

  • hairpaper

    I am not sure if anyone has posted on this in the past – has anyone run across a link, page, patent, etc. that details Histogen’s protocol for the conditioned media they inject into test subjects?
    I seem to remember something about fibroblasts grown in low oxygen conditions. It’s something that, if I had a clear protocol on, I’d test myself in the lab.

  • J

    what the hell is going on? Any updates? What the hell is Follica doing? Anything? Any hope with these BS artists? Someone give me some positive feedback/update….

  • Ryan

    J, Nothing is going on and there’s nothing much to talk about,

    Follica are supposedly in trials, although no-one knows what stage they’re at and where these trials are taking place, so it’s all wild speculation with them.

    Histogen, seem to have a phobia of starting trials.

    Replicell aka Trichoscience, are also in trials according to their site. These are taking place in Georgia(The country not the State), they’re years away.

    Aderans, I believe they’re are in phase II of their trials, but for some reason I think they chose to do all their trials in the US, and this will cost them a lot more money and is a much longer process than if they had gone oversees to do them. So it’s not likely we’ll see much from them anytime soon.

    It’s not looking like we’ll have anything in the near future to help us, our only hope is that someone can get something like Bimatoprost, Acell or Astressin-B to show some significant results at home or some rogue scientist has developed agoraphobia due to his or her androgenetic alopecia and is locked in their basement as we speak working on a cure. Or if we’re really lucky, Jacob was right saying Follica could move through trials pretty damn quick if they are going to categorize their treatment as a device, and with them admitting they’re in trials they could spring the greatest surprise in many people’s lives and come through with something before anyone. Not likely I know, but that’s about as positive as I can be.

  • brazilll

    histogen got a new CFO, i think it´s a good new

    http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#33

  • ak47

    when is histogen SUPPOSED to start trails? or is no one certain?

    also is there a way to purchase acell in powder form? i called the company and they said i needed a doc to order it for me… i recently cut my head pretty bad leaving a bald spot and was hoping to put some of this on it. i could be wrong but i don’t think the sheets which i found via google shopping would work the same.

  • ak47

    of course my doc had not herd of it and wasn’t wiling to let me try. it seemed to me kind of arrogant but whatever.

  • tk

    Isn’t Histogen in phase 2 already? Aren’t they still on track to an Asian release in 2013? I haven’t read any information pointing to the contrary.

  • Herzog

    Brazill,
    That IS good news. Histgen has been my personal front runner for some time. They seem to be growing every month. I have a lot of confidence in them.

  • KKwilliams

    I think last we heard was histogens 2013 possible release(which was more wishful thinking on “our” part) is much more likely going to be 2015 in asia at the earliest.

    I think they are starting to screen applicants for the phase 1/2 of their trials in June.

    I know no one wants to hear this but we still 3-6 years away and thats if histogen gets through trials with a treatment that can produce cosmetically significant results.

    Maybe follica is closer but those guys are like deep undercover mad scientists who are pretty tight lipped for a while now lol

  • ak47

    thankz

  • tk

    @KKwilliams
    Where do you get that info about 2015? I don’t recall ever reading about this. Last time we heard from the dr supervising the trials, 2013 was still very much in the cards.

  • tk

    If you don’t believe in Gho, just don’t bother with this post. We already how you feel anyway.

    For anybody interested, there are some interesting videos on the Hair Science Institute YouTube channel. They are quite revealing.

    It seems that all the patients undergoing Gho’s procedure must shave their heads. This is a major problem for potential patients, and I would even say a no-go for most people.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/HairScienceInstitute#p/a/u/1/lhqz3Q421KA

    In the video above, the patient was bald. After the procedure, he looks like he has thinning hair. It’s quite a nice difference, but the density really isn’t there yet. It is looking nonetheless very natural, unlike some other patients I’ve seen of the HSI.

    The problem is with their hairline design. It’s like they have this stencil, and they just draw the same hairline on all the patients. This makes it look quite off if you ask me.

    All in all, this is looking like a real yet very impractical procedure, that only the most dedicated patients will get anything from. From the videos you can see that it is a very tedious and labor intensive procedure, not to mention expensive.

    It seems that HM is actually here now, and as many of us expected over ten years ago, it is in fact prohibitively expensive. My feeling is that the price and limited availability of the procedure is the reason why Gho has such a bad reputation on the web. “All these years of HM research and we have to pay a fortune to get some small strands of hair? Give me a full head of hair for under 1000$ and then we’ll speak!”. I say dream on.

    So if you’re dedicated, patient, willing to shave your head completely every year, and have the money to pay for the procedure, you can feel better knowing that there is a procedure available now that can alleviate your pain. This is a truly mind boggling development.

    Again, no need to comment if you don’t believe in Gho, or if you believe we faked the moon landing and that 9/11 was an insider job as well. ;)

  • Wotever

    Regarding Histogen, the following is from a post elsewhere on the internet. It is an email reportedly received from Histogen around one month ago (late April 2011), and according to this they are now aiming for Asian approval late 2013 to early 2014…

    “Our next clinical trial is scheduled to begin Summer 2011 in Singapore. While we don’t expect our product to be launched in the US until the 2015 timeframe, Histogen hopes that we can launch sooner outside the US if our international trials go well. However, that timeframe would also be a few years out. As an estimation, Histogen hopes to get product approval in Asia by late-2013/early-2014. Histogen expects that launching the HSC product in the EU will be around the same time as a US product in 2015. As the product progresses through development, Histogen will identify whether trials in the UK/EU are necessary.”

  • KKwilliams

    Hi tk,

    I think I remember reading a post from Dr. Ziering on the fact that 2013 was unlikely at this point. (dont quote me on that though because we all see tons of posts and I may be mixing up posters)

    Dont get me wrong I totally have the hots for histogen :) but Im just trying to read between the lines and not lie to myself.

    Too many guys still think they will be getting a new mane on jan 1st 2013!!

    when they say 2013 they mean like dec 2013 so basically 2014! factor in the inevitable setbacks(candidate selection has been pushed back already and hasnt even begun)

    Depending on how desperate an individual is they will shorten the timeline in their own mind.

    I could see very early 2015 in asia and very late 2015 in U.S.A. release.

    others might see 2014(basically a day before my 2015 timeline lol. I see a possible release in about 3.5 years while some would see 2 or even 1.5!! since 2011 is half over. years.

  • hairpaper

    Has anyone come across publications from Histogen regarding their hair growth technology? I understand some info is on their website but I’m curious if their protocol is detailed anywhere.

  • tk

    That’s quite a downer, regarding Histogen. Well, what really matters in the end are the results. Do repeat treatments increase hair yield? How far apart can we get those treatments done? Will it also grow hair on already bald areas or is this only for thinning areas?
    Next year will be interesting if we get the answers to those questions.

    So I guess ARI’s treatment will come out at the same time as Histogen’s. Good stuff.

  • tk

    @hairpaper,
    From what we know they are using fibroblasts from baby foreskins. I am pretty sure the procedure is not autologous, which is what intrigues me the most. So it’s quite different from what Replicell and ARI are doing.

    There was supposed to me someone from Histogen at some conference in Seoul on May 24th. Does anybody here know anything about that?

  • hairpaper

    Thanks tk,
    yes, from what I can dig up Histogen shows up a few times in the literature, only one publication refers to conditioned medium from fibroblasts grown in hypoxic conditions and then concentrated. That paper was for post-op treatment in cosmetic surgery. I’d like to find out if it’s pretty much the same protocol for their hair growth. Aside from a low oxygen environment the protocol would be otherwise very easy to replicate.

    If anyone has any other references to specific interviews, patents, etc. please let me know. Thanks.

  • hairpaper

    FYI I know some of this data is on the Histogen site but here is a link I found with a PDF that shows more than just one test subject treated with conditioned media from fibroblasts

    http://www.histogen.com/downloads/stem_cell_summit.pdf

    I really do what to find the details to this protocol. Even though I run the science at my company I’d have a tough time setting up something too elaborate but it’s not like anyone would make a fuss.

  • Zach

    Each injection is small, quite similar to the size and volume per injection for botox and dermal fillers. In the pilot trial, each 2cm2 treatment area received 4 0.1cc injections, so an average of roughly 100 new “hairs were seen per 2cm2 treatment area in the HSC sites. This amount of new hair growth is not only significant statistically, but is also considered cosmetically significant – this level of new growth would produce a visible difference if treating an entire region of hair loss. Hair thickness and density also significantly increased in the pilot trial.

    Doc Z”

    That is a quote from Dr.Ziering. he is involved in the histogen trials.

    Does anyone know if there is an average or some statistical model that shows what an average improvement a new drug improves from beginning to the final product? 57 NEW hairs cm/2 is a encouraging start but they need to AT LEAST double that result to get us a cure type treatment. 114 hairs per cm/2 is only about 60% of what the average guy would normally have.

  • tk

    57 hairs per square cm is a truly amazing result, particularly so if it works in bald areas (which we don’t know yet.) My donor area doesn’t even have that much hair, yet it looks fine if I use the right shampoos and blow dry it.

    And remember that you can probably use multiple treatments too.

    The point being, this will be a cure for people with thinning hair. Will it be for people with bald areas? Hopefully so too.

  • Zach

    “And remember that you can probably use multiple treatments too.” -tk

    TK no offense man but you have no idea if multiple treatments will increase the hair count. That is what the trials are for. Hopefully that is true and gives a significant increase with multiple treatments

    57 hairs is a good increase on paper and yes it is very amazing progress from anything before but in my opinion if we cant get to MINIMUM 60% of a normal density, about 110 hairs cm/2 we would still look noticeable thin

  • tk

    That,s why I said “probably”. It’s not a certainty, but a possibility. Remember that even Dr. Gail Naughton herself believes that multiple treatments are quite likely possible.

    The real question is wether or not it will work in bald areas.

    And I disagree that you would need 60% density. As I said my sides and back don’t have that, and they don’t look thin at all. This really depends on the individual’s hair quality.

    Whatever happens, Histogen looks like our best bet at the moment. Results should look super natural too.

  • hairpaper

    These are all interesting discussions and if I find more I will post. I guess what I’m getting at is if someone (not me (OK, yes, me)) was to have the full Histogen protocol, or enough to go on I’d test this out myself.

  • ak47

    one last question, do you guys know if histogen will work in scarred areas? hence, i have a sort of have a surgical scar on my head now from the staples. i had 3 of them put in which is where it seems the hair is not regrowing. if not, that will be quite depressing news. luckily the scar is thin itself but even the area around the scar is slightly hairless. i have seen some regrowth and they said in 6 months i would know how much more it will improve. i am pretty certain it is not going to regrow fully though. it would be nice to know hm will help me out with this to but if not i guess i am screwed…

  • hairpaper

    I think to confidently say that Histogen’s technology/technique will even work is only a guess. Nobody can walk into a doctor’s office and receive a treatment developed by Histogen.
    People may give you advice but your doctor would be the best source on this one. Plastic surgeons can do amazing work and if you’re talking about a nasty scar from a surgery (but you generally have your hair) you probably have good options.

  • tk

    @ak47,
    Don’t worry, many Drs perform FUTs on the scar area as a repair job. The moment they can grow hair anywhere on your head consistently, you shouldn’t have any problems, since that new extra hair can in turn be used for the repair job.

    It will all boil down to your dedication, i.e. the time and money you will be wiling to invest in a treatment.

  • Jacob

    Dr. George Cotsarelis will apparently be hosting a discussion on the regeneration of hair follicle stem cells and the wound induced hair follicle neogenesis on June 14.

    http://sciencecenter.basecampbusiness.com/node/31651

  • victimofdht

    I don’t understand it. “We don’t know yet if Histogen will grow hair in bald areas”. So where are they growing hair (those 57 hairs/cm2)? In areas where there is still hair ?

  • tk

    @victimofdht,
    From the pics that we have seen, it looks like they mean thinning areas. There is no evidence that they can get such amazing results on bald areas. But we don’t know either way for sure.
    So far all companies involved in research have used a % increase as a way to measure hair growth. So it’s great to have 84% hair increase on a thin area, but on a bald area, +84% of nothing won’t yield much…
    It’s still early in the game anyway, so let’s not get carried away with hasty conclusions. Things could always turn out well for bald areas. This would be a great question for a Q&A.

  • hairpaper

    Would anyone be willing to join a trial to test the Histogen therapy? Or to have inside information on such a trial?

  • Shooter

    Good find, Jacob, but I’m not getting worked up over it. Dr. Cotsarelis is a joke. It says “a *model* that *could* lead to *improved* treatments for hair loss.” Nothing groundbreaking here – way too many qualifiers. Can’t believe we fell for his BS 3.5 years ago.

  • Shooter

    @hairpaper – Sure, on both accounts.

  • spyder

    @Shooter – why?
    Cotsarelis is able to grow hairs on mice after wounding – even without ACell!!

    http://youtu.be/V64ht1r8APo

  • Jacob

    I agree with you Shooter, I doubt we’ll be able to get any information from this event anyway, and like you said the amount of qualifiers they use is disheartening. I wish they could just come out and give it to us straight about what chance there is of a treatment and in what time frame, but we all know by now that’s never going to happen, so we’re left picking at scraps of information in the hope it reveals something.

  • lurker

    I don’t know. I don’t necessarily agree with Shooter on this one. If you re-read this article by Ryan, Ju specifically says they expect to “reveal findings from its research in traditional forums such as medical meetings and academic journals”. This is a medical meeting. So, I wouldn’t write it off just yet.

    Let’s wait to hear what he says.

  • tk

    I agree that we can’t expect anything significant from Costerellis or Follica for years and years to come. I really don’t see anything on the horizon other than HSC, HST and perhaps the Allergan drug.

    But just HSC with HST are pretty amazing. So it’s not that we’ll have nothing, just that it will be very tedious and expensive.

  • juliano

    anyone in philadelphia could go there to see what he´ll gonna say and tell us

  • zach

    where do you get 84% increase tk?

    it was only a 47% hair increase. the 73% data they released is propped up number which they used. it takes into account hair thickness and other factors as well.

    we really need to see data and trials on much less dense hair. The data they released is on guys who are in early stages of thinning. 134 hairs/cm2 was their baseline.

    Maybe hsc will be designed or at least marketed as a treatment to reverse hairloss once it is noticed or if you fear it as a young man. It may not get any such results on hairless areas. those pics are of an area of only 1.47 cm/2. the trial participants had good density to begin with

  • victimofdht

    From what I gather so far, Histogen was able to grow NEW hairs and not just thicken existing thinning hairs. So, why would they be able to grow new hairs in thinning areas but not in bald areas ? I mean if they could grow hairs -that didn’t EXIST any more-in the thinning area why wouldn’t the same thing be possible in a completely bald area ? The hairs in the thinning area were “dead” and non-existent too.

  • hairpaper

    Yeah, these last few statements are why I was asking. There’s a willingness to try things like bimatoprost and other drugs. If people were given Histogen’s HSC tomorrow, would they really be willing to inject into their thinning areas? I would, and I have the capability to copy what Histogen has done, if I know the protocol to an extent. Once I’ve got a protocol, making one liter is no big deal, and these guys were using a few mLs tops per subject? I’m just wondering if everyone’s desire to test suddenly collapses if the stuff is available but hasn’t rigorously tested by Histogen.

  • julian

    some people here see bad news even in good news. Why don´t just wait a little and see what happens first? can´t you never take good news for just good news?! And I have not lost my hopes on Follica. They should bring something still this year, I believe.

  • Artista

    Very WELL said Julian.

  • elcapitan

    ah we have been listening to this shite for years, sorry just so disheartening

  • gmonasco

    “From what I gather so far, Histogen was able to grow NEW hairs and not just thicken existing thinning hairs. So, why would they be able to grow new hairs in thinning areas but not in bald areas?”

    Perhaps because they weren’t really “new” hairs, but rather existing hairs that were coaxed out of the telogen phase by HSC.

  • Z79
  • hairpaper

    Z79 – thanks very much. I will definitely take a look through these. I grow cells on a regular basis in all sorts of plates and flasks. To simply allow fibroblasts to become confluent on microcarriers in hypoxic conditions for weeks on end isn’t a killer experiment. It’s something I want to tackle. Worst case I’d outsource but I don’t see the point for the amount of $$ it would run me.

  • zach

    gmonasco
    5/31/11 3:17 pm

    “From what I gather so far, Histogen was able to grow NEW hairs and not just thicken existing thinning hairs. So, why would they be able to grow new hairs in thinning areas but not in bald areas?”

    Perhaps because they weren’t really “new” hairs, but rather existing hairs that were coaxed out of the telogen phase by HSC.

    ALSO MAYBE because in a area without any hair beneath the surface may lack the structures that thinning areas have(I do not know the tech names)

    2015 get here already

  • stayhair

    @hairpaper
    Careful bud, wnt carries the risk of being carcenogenic or tumorous. I think the real cure will come only when they cure prostate cancer. The process is very similar to androgenic alopecia. Destroy androgens locally and indefinitely in the scalp, and that should do it.

  • KKwilliams

    Since ‘we’ have a basic understanding now of why follicles stop growing and a seemingly effective theory on several possible ways to begin regenerating follicles directly from within the scalp(with aid of stimulant).

    I have a hard time thinking we wont have a back to basically normal density or very close to it within 15 years. Only way I dont see 15 years as the outside timeline is if all the current companies fail and no one immediately continues to look for a cure.

    The only thing I keep flip flopping on in my mind is could we actually get a treatment within 3-4 years or will it be 4-10 or go all the way to 15 years before this is over.

    I really hate not knowing where follica is, we basically have 0 indication of if they are having any success in humans. Plus since histogen hasn’t even begun candidate selection for phase 1 of its clinical trials we wont hear anything of worth from them for like what 6 months? a year?

    A L S O hairpaper, what exactly are you trying to do? I dont think it would be possible to actual start a human trial on yourself lol. too much info about the hsc solution you most likely cant get.

  • julian

    In 15 years we´ll have the cure for death!!! stop being a pain in the ass!!! what you are? a fuckin prophet?! shut the fuck up!!

  • A

    lol settle down kid.

  • KKwilliams

    Julian dont hate on me because of your situation. I guess you believe the ‘cure’ is being packaged as we speak and will be here within a year.

    wow you tell some people that we might have to wait 4 years or more and they lose it ))

  • Artista

    Julian,that type of banter is unnecessary, immature and unwanted. Others have been banned from here because of that very reason. Be warned.

  • Z79

    I was thinking about the upcoming Cotsarelis event on june 14. Would he really be having a presentation/discussion about something he discovered more than 4 years ago? Is there anything to be said that he hasn´t already said? Doesn´t feel like much of a discussion.
    So could he be talking about new insights/discoveries or maybe even about the results from the follica trial? It would be nice to know if there has been any progress at all in the last 4 years. Is anyone going to attend?

  • hairpaper

    KK williams – This is my field of expertise.
    Which is why you may be surprised that Follica hasnt revealed results but neither has my company – so what? Yes, they did make big announcements early on, so did we. Unfortunately, investors have a ton of $$$ but are pretty stupid. They love to show off their new companies even if company policy years later is to stay silent. Follica could literally stay that way until they’re one day bought up by Merck and even then not publicly share info. As Z79 points out, going to the June 13th meeting and talking with Cotsarelis is the best you can do.

    As far as what I can/want to do, yes I would like to replicate the Histogen protocol. If I have enough of the protocol it’s not a big deal. The HSC solution is conditioned media, and if someone got sick from that it would be a bigger shocker than hair growth. In biology we work with infectious agents such as retroviruses, etc. but never get sick. The problem is usually just the opposite, we can’t get viruses and other delivery agents to spread well enough!

    As far as safety, I’m not concerned about fibroblast conditioned media, concentrations of any one signaling protein would be nowhere near the levels of purified growth factors. The only downside is that the cells are foreskin fibroblasts, so comments about d***heads will pop up sooner or later.

    From a technical aspect, I haven’t rush ordered a nitrogen tank because aside from hypoxic conditions I want to make sure I have a few more details. Hence my request for any and all literature people have come across about the protocol, intentionally or by accident. But I will go for it. I can talk about it and hypothesize all I want but either this protocol will have some effect or not.

  • Artista

    Z79 speaks with much LOGIC.

  • Metsie

    And just to add to the Z79 idea, isn’t he giving this presentation in the the Philly (U Penn) area? I know we have seen these conferences come and go but this one is slightly interesting.

  • Artista

    Deluxe my friend,could you weigh in on this? How are things with you? Im curious to know of your progression.

  • Deluxe

    Artista, how are you? I think that trying to figure out when something will be released is a big waste of time and will get your hopes up for nothing. Until we hear any solid news from a viable company, we will always be saying 5 years away.

    I am however not counting out Histogen or Aderans (and even Tricho) to bring us something within 3-5 years. Tricho perhaps even longer, but the only bright side to all of this is the fact that there are companies out there trying to solve the problem…

    As for TRX2, I started my 4th month today and will keep it up until month 9. They state that results will start to come in after the 5 month mark so this is still in the air. Some others have seen a difference in their hair thickness, but I would still urge anyone to NOT spend their money on this treatment until one of us realizes any true gains! This is a long shot, but we are desperate….

    My hair transplant is actually starting to grow in. As a matter of fact today is my 3rd month exactly from the day of surgery! They say that the 3rd month is the milestone before real growth starts to become real visual. I notice a lot of tiny hairs sprouting still. I think I will post some pics on thebaldtruth.com forum, so look out for those.

    In any case, Artista, you know better than anyone, that arguments flare up on this site from time to time…its always refreshing to get away from these sites for a while and come back to check in… Anyway, how are things with you? Did you decide to go in for a consult?

  • julian

    These numbers mean nothing cause nobody knows what´s going on. And it´s boring!! All this kind of talking is meaningless anyway. it´s “I think” talking. Cotsarelis will speak, so let´s hear the guy first! isn´t what we want? some good news from them? I would attend it if I was near. June 14 may bring us more hope!!

  • Ryan

    julian, I agree with you that there’s no point guessing about time lines but KK was only giving his opinion, I’m sure we’re all desperate to hear something soon.

    As much as I want something positive to come from this discussion Cotsarelis is hosting I just can’t see it being anything that we are waiting for. I know William Ju said they would reveal research findings at medical meetings, but that’s not likely going to be clinical trial results. Everything they say seems to be open to interpretation so I really don’t know what to make of it, here’s hoping for good news on the 14th anyway.

  • julian

    My point is: is it useful for anybody here to have an opinion – FREQUENT – of someone who doesn´t know what he is talking about? Or is there somebody here working at Follica? Cotsarelis is the guy that can reveal something. I cannot say when, nobody here can do that but some people keeps saying it on and on. And it´s no use!! See what I mean? People anticipate things too much here!

  • questionable

    One treatment is a real possibility, but probably expensive and” unethical” to some. That is xenotransplantation. Scientists can remove dna from the follicles, so the body wont reject it, but why aren’t any companies utilizing this?

  • KKwilliams

    Histogen wins patent ruling
    http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#34

    They still might have more problems with this SkinMedica lawsuit but its good news at least.

  • rev

    Fukk SkinMedica, their soul-sucking management team, and their legal leeches. They damn-near destroyed our best hope for a next-gen hairloss treatment. The following quote pretty-much substantiates the damaged they caused:

    “It (the ruling) will allow us to raise the additional capital to continue the development of our lead therapeutic products, and will re-start partnership discussions, all of which have been slowed by this litigation since January 2009.”

  • tk

    The Histogen ruling is the best news to come in quite a while. I don’t know if it will have any impact on the speed of development of the technology itself or its efficacy, but this might help with funding and distribution.

    Justice was served. Now hopefully the trials will go well this yar.

    Histogen is pretty much our only hope in the medium term. If they can really have something in 3-4 years, then it will be marvelous for many people who will be able to afford traveling to Asia. (I think the FDA will drag this thing down considerably.)

    Can’t wait for the next news on Replicell.

  • hairpaper

    questionable,
    Xenotransplantation has nothing to do with removal of DNA. In fact, you would want to leave cells with DNA to allow for a lifetime of growth.
    Without knowing the specifics, my guess is that you’re referring to work that dates back to the 90s regarding immune privilege of hair follicles.
    A company should take advantage of it in what way? Either A) someone living allows you to perform a person-to-person hair transplant (a company doesn’t need to be formed for that) or B) you obtain hair follicles from recently deceased individuals. In the case of B I’m not sure of all the issues involved but I assume the procedure would have to be done in one day and there are limits on the amounts of grafts. My opinion is go for it. If the person is not HIV+, etc. there’s not reason it couldn’t be worked out. Likely you’d need to find a hair transplant specialist who was willing to put their reputation on the line.

  • tk

    I know they can do twin-to-twin HTs. So we should just clone ourselves and steal the clone’s hair! We could build a clone farm somewhere in the desert…
    I’m sick and tired of this hair loss crap. I’m tired of my scalp looking worse than my scrotum. I wish I could use the latter as a photo for a Facebook page… I’d probably get more friends that way.

  • herzog

    Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

  • questionable

    I meant animal to human transplants. What animal? I don’t know, but since they are doing this with hearts and livers, why not hair? Take it from the animals they are going to kill for the xenotransplantation and the transplant patient donates the carcass to a homeless shelter. But, the animal will likely have percentages of human DNA in it (if anyone doesnt know what hairpaper and I are refering
    to, please do your research) to prevent rejection but is it cannabilism to eat them? Only problem would be PETA and money. Also, I dont care if I have cow fur on my head, I wont be bald lol. Xenotransplantation is not yet available, but it can be an alternative future cure for baldness and organ failure.

  • tk

    Animal to human transplants have indeed been performed in the past, although the level of success is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder.

    http://content8.flixster.com/question/63/92/19/6392194_std.jpg

    As for me, I’d rather wait for HST.

  • Artista

    tk,,that was hilarious! We all empathize of course and LOVE the levity. We will all be oK in time.

  • Maverick

    @tk

    You can´t say that this guy will not get some “birds”, if you know what I mean? :D

  • Artista

    Deluxe,, my apologies for the late response time. Im doing ok,,i have not scheduled a consult as yet. I will though this summer. I look forward to meeting Dr Konior. To everyone-I may be attending the June 14th event. I hope to be able to go (working on it) ,,if i do i will OF COURSE report here asap.

  • hairpaper

    questionable,
    I appreciate the enthusiasm, but please understand that you could talk to a few local dermatologists and they would likely think you were crazy. Human and “animals” (mammals, worms, even fruit fly) share similar protein coding regions and noncoding regions of their DNA. That doesn’t mean there are literal chunks of cells and tissues in animals that are identical to human cells. Transplanting hair from a mammal such as a cow could work, in theory. Does it even matter? I guess what I’m wondering is — just what are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to gather information and talk to a doctor about your idea (which has likely been mused about before)?

    You could go to this June 14th meeting and I’m sure Cotsarelis would entertain the discussion (after a few drinks) but you’re talking yet another path of 10+ years of trials (starting when? next year? 2012-2013?) and ultimately the same technical drawbacks we currently have with hair transplants. Probably best to brainstorm and come up with a better idea.

  • Jacob

    Artista – Are you talking about attending the Cotsarellis discussion? It would be excellent news if someone who posts on here could get in there. It’ll be interesting to see what he has to say, I can’t see any reason why they could have been held back so long, even some of the guys attempting the Follica treatment in a crude form at home were able to show proof of concept.

  • Artista

    Jacob, yes that is what i meant. I cant say for sure at this point, my schedule is always out of balance. If i can Ill be sure to REPORT to all of my brothers here.

  • Shooter

    Artista, I will literally pay you to attend that event and either get solid facts regarding Follica’s treatment or, on behalf of everyone at this Xconomy message board, give the good doctor a piece of your mind.

  • rev

    … and I’ll pay you to stuff Cotsarellis in your trunk, and bring him to an undisclosed location for enhanced interrogation.

  • Shooter

    Lol, rev!

    But seriously, now. I’ll pay.

  • Artista

    LOL,,on both counts. Shooter,,i appreciate the offer. Im not sure what the admission fee would be.. Flying there for me is ,,of course,,FREE. One of the perks to being in that industry.

  • Ryan

    Artista – There’s some contact details on the website Jacob linked up for that Cotsarelis meeting, drop them an email to see who it’s open to and how much it costs.

  • ak47

    rev u r awesome. even though i know u and fckhrls are somewhat of mortal enemies i love u both… but you are a cocky guy which is funny cause it’s never been directed at me.

  • Z79

    More publications from Follica, another patent published online:

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2011/0130711.html

  • Z79

    Forget about the lithium patent, this has to be what they are going for in the clinical trial. Seems like it is precision wounding with a laser and injection of 6-bromo-indirubin-3′-oxime (a GSK3β modulator).
    “The present disclosure provides methods and systems that increase the number of hair-producing follicles on a body surface by two-fold or more, representing a valuable treatment for subjects suffering from male- or female-pattern hair loss”
    So one treatment would give you a 100% increase of hair or more. Yeah I would go for that treatment…

  • Ryan

    Good find Z79, If it’s compoundable then that would be huge on it’s own. I wouldn’t dismiss the lithium patent altogether though, they could all be part of the final treatment.

  • Jacob

    Like Ryan said good find Z79.

  • Artista

    That is an excellent read Z79. We must not forget that never in the history of the modern age has there been so many SERIOUS medical researchers and companies FOCUSED on the topic of hair loss. The medical community of today has been ‘armed’ with progressive advancements and technology previously unknown.
    Its so exciting once you realize that NO ONE will give up on this venture. The fire has been lit.
    Does anyone know what the admission cost is to sit in on the June 14th convention? Ive been working so much these days,,hardly time to think. I may go ahead and call to see.

  • tk

    Wow, just wow! I guess they were serious when they said they would rather work in the dark. A 100% increase in hair would suck for bald guys, but if you can double the donor area, then you can have unlimited donor, mostly if you combine this with Gho’s HST. (Which according to the latest news, isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.)

    Hopefully this will be released before the end of the world, which I believe has been pushed back to October of this year. Think of it guys, when Rapture comes, we’ll all go to Heaven for sure. I mean, how the heck am I supposed to sin with that so called hair on my head?

    Good stuff. Keep it coming guys. This has become the best place on the web for sorry balding losers with no life. We should all be proud!

  • ak47

    i believe this (follica) would work for scars… if i read it correctly. to bad i have no idea when this tech will come about. hopefully follica is planning on actually testing this and starting trails soon.

  • tk

    Sorry guys, I just went through the patent, and it reeks of desperation. This procedure has nothing to do with the original Follica idea of dermabrasion plus lithium. Those guys are trying any sort of thing now to grow hair. They really are “investigating”, or rather improvising new methods if you must ask me.

    Somehow I doubt anything will ever come out of Follica. Dermabrasion looks like it didn’t work at all if they are going for a technique like this.

    In case you haven’t read the patent, they seem to be splitting follicles in vivo with a high precision laser, and then applying some compound.

    With 100 000 hairs on a typical human head, no way on earth this will be a cost effective method. And what if the hair quality sucks to begin with?

    Follica is a chicken running around without a head IMHO. I don’t see how they can be of help to guys running around without hair…

    Only hope is HSC, ARI, plus HST as a backup plan. Otherwise there is nothing on the horizon.

  • Mr. Z

    Apparently you didn’t read the patent too closely because it most certainly covers wounding and lithium, amongst other things. You must have missed the section where they discuss laser ablation to wound the tissues surrounding the follicle? And likewise you must have missed the many, many sections coveriing lithium compounds. Either you don’t understand what patents are used for or you’re just looking to smear Follica.

    After looking over the patent, i don’t know how anyone can conclude anything other than these guys are doing a ton of work and are covering all their bases from an IP stand point. It’s very impressive.

  • ak47

    i trust u know what ur talking about Mr. Z

    good news if u r right – hope u r

  • victimofdht

    Where were these companies 30 or 40 years ago ? I have no doubt had any body cared enough about finding a cure for baldness 30 or 40 years ago this problem (baldness) would’ve been solved by now. I don’t think it has anything to do with medical advancements. It’s just that I dont think people cared enough to study this curse or treat it. Too bad they’re just starting to care.

  • tk

    You’re right that I didn’t read the patent too closely. But from the main description, it seems that this is a method of splitting follicles, like Gho is doing.

    My point is that if they are researching so many new methods, then the original dermabrasion method must not yield the results that they originally wanted.

    This is not about smearing Follica, but about toning our expectations down. Follica was started as a company that would try to develop a treatment based on dermabrasion + growth factor. Now they have turned into a company that is investigating many novel ways to regrow hair.

    Is the glass half-empty or half-full? I say their original method failed, so they’re trying to find other ways. It’s all fine and dandy, but when you consider that in 2008 (or was that 2007?) they were saying three years for availability, it doesn’t leave a good impression to me.

    In brief, they are back to highly experimental stuff. No way any of this will be ready before 5 years, or even 10. It’s science fiction for most people here.

    My bubble has been burst to many times to fall for something like this.

  • julian

    Follica will bust the door!!! they´ll hit the pot!!! and it´s coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • julian

    Rogaine exists for more than 20 years… I don´t think “they” are just starting to care now. And off course it has to do with medical advancements!!

  • julian

    FOLLICA, I love that name!!!! THEY´LL SAVE OUR WORLD, BEFORE IT ENDS!!! I´m really happy with these news, guys!!! I knew Follica would be the one!!! I was sure!!! Now it´s just a matter of time, and: LITTLE TIME!!!!

  • tk

    julian,
    You are being sarcastic, right? I mean, really. You can’t be serious…

    I’d rather call them Faillica, if you ask me.

  • Mark

    tk,
    you are being sarcastic right??? Looks like its his opinion versus yours. stop being such a douchebag and attacking people on here. None of us know what will happen.

    If you dont think anything is coming you’re best to maybe find a better way of spending your time then on here.

  • Z79

    There is absolutely something going on with Follica right now…. Three new people have been added to the executive team:
    http://www.follicabio.com/content/executive-team/

  • Jacob

    They all sound very impressive Z79, lets hope it’s a positive sign.

  • tk

    Mark,
    Who was I attacking? You’re the one who is being insulting! I was stating a tongue in cheek opinion, that’s all.

    They can add all the executives they want, much like ICX did before them. Follica is still a long shot. No way they have something before 10 years. Even Costerellis was clear that a cure was way down the road.

    Follica went to having a cure ready in the 2011-2012 timeframe to “investigating many new treatments.” That is all we need to know. No need to pump anything. No need to attack anyone.

    Maybe I should reserve my iPhone 10gs++ and my copy of Windows 11 while I’m at it.

    Right now we have HSC coming, and Gho’s HST, which sucks only because his team doesn’t have the artistry to do anything good with it. That is a lot if you ask me.

    For the next 5 years, it’s HSC or bust.

  • Br1980KK

    well… there are new guys working on follica… i don´t know if it´s good or not
    But the fact that they don´t publish a lot of news i see in the positive way. they don´t need money so they don´t need to tell us what´s going on… sad but if we´re there, with our money maybe we´ll do the same
    i believe that in 2-3 years we´ll know what they have in their hand

  • hhhumm1979

    tk… there´s a little difference between they don´t show nothing to they don´t have nothing
    i don´t know what they have and you don´t know too, like anyone here

  • tk

    According to Costarelis, a treatment is ten years away.

    I really hope the young men here are not putting their hopes on a cure from Follica in the near future. They will be psychologically damaged when they realize it won’t save them. I lived it with the Gho HM, ICX and countless other “cures”.

    Live your life now, however imperfect it may be.

    Me I’m old now. My back is hunched, my balls hurt, my scalp is bare (whatever is left is turning white), and my girl is getting really horny by the minute. This is really bad…

  • J

    are you kidding me? I just dont believe that some good treatment isnt coming out soon…

    WTF??

  • KKwilliams

    I dont get either. Histogens pre-clinical trial results were impressive, especially since it was only 1 injection and the results have lasted at least 1 year.

    If they are JUST bale to recreate that result consistently over any sized area treated. 57 new hairs is no small improvement.

    Hopefully histogen is also testing this on areas with no current hair, since thats going to be the hardest area to treat.

  • julian

    I´d really like to understand why some people are so negative, even when the signs seems good. It appears some people like to suffer or torture themselves, maybe. Who knows exactly what´s happening with Follica? the news just suggest they´re doing pretty good. But some people, who don´t know how they are, keeps betting on their failure, for what? Guys, there´s a lot of good news popping out now and let´s wait a little! Cotsarelis will speak next week, let´s hear him first!! By the way, WHERE AND WHEN HAS COTSARELIS AFFIRMED THAT IT WILL TAKE 10 YEARS? I´d like to see where is that!! In my opinion, Follica is preparing itself, getting ready for the big day! and off course it will not take 10 years! My bets have always been on Follica and now more than ever!!! Histogen and the others are far behind them, just my opinion. I DON´T KNOW EVERYTHING THAT´S GOING ON EVERYWHERE, I DON´T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN AND WHEN!!! it´s just a layman humble, a little optimistic and very much interested opinion!

  • Mr. Z

    Cotsarelis was quoted in article saying that it will take 10yrs, it’s true. But, he was also quoted in either the same article, or a similar one, as saying that Follica has not even begun clinical trials. Since that time, it’s become known that Follica is and was involved in a clinical trial at the time that article was published and it’s been on going for some time now. So, Cotsarelis’s word about the business end of Follica’s work is not to be taken at face value.

    I really wouldn’t expect to hear anything major from him at this talk he’s giving on the 14th. Follica’s CEO William Ju was quoted in a recent Nature article saying that they’re purposely keeping a tight lid on all their progress and activities in order not to fool with the expectations of those suffering from hairloss. He described their expectations as a bit of a roller coaster ride, with them getting high on small bits of info that come out and then let down when it leads to nothing; and he’s trying to avoid doing that to people.

  • Mr. Z

    But, i will say this: The way follica is staffing thier company, it appears that they’ll have something sooner than later. Follica has a full management team in place – scientifically they have an incredible team, but they also have guys in place for marketing, head of operations, chief business officer etc.. Why fill these positions and pay salary on it if they’re still struggling with the basic science? That doesn’t make sense. If Follica were still “figuring things out” there would be no good reason to set up marketing or operations at this point.

    Of course, i’m just speculating and there is a chance i’m wrong. But, their recent activities don’t make sense to me if they really are lost and have nothing. Either way, we still have got some time to wait, but it does look promising.

  • tk

    From what we know Histogen is by far at the most advanced stage. 57 hairs per cm2 is amazing, mostly if the effect is additive (which we don’t know yet.) Might be out in 2014 if we’re lucky.

    Gho has a tempting yet limited procedure, which would be amazing in the hands of the right docs.

    Anything else is just speculation. Speculation from people who are desperately waiting for a cure isn’t so reliable.

    More like wishful thinking.

  • Shooter

    Great find Z79… once again, all the people on Follica’s board have incredible academic pedigrees (a bunch of MBAs from Kellogg and Wharton, etc). I still just feel like these people are in it for the notoriety/money, and not to actually cure hair loss.

    Mr. Z, can you link to that article with William Ju?

  • Mr. Z
  • test

    Why create a marketing team if you have nothing to market? They have something maybe not a cure but somethng they can sell.

  • herzog

    Shooter,
    There is no notoriety\money without curing hair loss.

    Also, the fact that they have a staff marketing team is completely bizarre. Even if they thought they were close to releasing something soon-ish, normally a company like this would hire an outside marketing agency so they could move quick once it was ready to be released. It really looks like they know they are sitting on something huge.

    Any business analysts on here want to chime in on what this means?

  • hairpaper

    I think I may have commented on theFollica management team before, I don’t remember.

    If the executive team are who you’re referring to:
    http://www.follicabio.com/content/executive-team/

    I don’t think they have someone in place for marketing (that I can see). All these positions are not atypical for a small/medium biotech. The Chief Medical Officer is a position that of course only crops up when there is an invention that will be tested in the clinic.
    Though it looks impressive these are standard in biotech. The funny part (or sad part, depending on how you look at it) is that the “executive team” probably equals the number of actual bench scientists.

    It’s sad, the model is – use your name (cotsarelis) and scientific work (Nature paper) and track record, if Cots. has one, to raise 11MM. Then grow the company super fast, have poor direction, burn through funding and eventually collapse. I HOPE that doesn’t happen here but the comments by Ju in the Nature article really do highlight how often CEOs/investors are pretty stupid about the science and how to run things. Pray that their VP of R&D knows the f*** he’s doing!

  • Shooter

    The info/quotes in the nature article is only available to subscribers… :(

    Did Ju say anything else that was important?

  • Mr. Z

    Shooter, i’ll go through it tomorrow and see if there is anything else. I don’t recall anything major

  • Ryan

    I don’t know how these companies go about their business so I don’t know if the new faces on their board is a good sign or not, but I don’t for one minute believe they have poor direction, from what I’ve read about the people involved they’re extremely competent and thorough in everything they do.

  • julian

    You´ve convinced me, thank you! I now believe there are fellows here who know more than the people at Follica! No need to hear Cotsarelis anymore!! It´s clear now for me, thanks to you, that all of their work, those patents and everything, all is for nothing! those guys just like to write a lot! you´re right, they failed!! I´ll not have to waste my time on them anymore!!

  • ak47

    Daphne Zohar tweeted about hair raising article a lil while ago. For whatever that is worth which isn’t much but at least she had confidence in it. Ya… One way or the other she is pretty sexy IMO. ;)

    Truth is I don’t know what to think about Follica but seeing as how I am super desperate for some help I am gonna keep on hoping they are successful. Especially since what I gather it may be most helpful for my particular situation.

  • Mr. Z

    @Shooter, Quotes from Nature Biotech write up:

    Follica is in clinical trials to optimize both the device and drug components. Ju would not discuss specifics of the trial design, in part because consumer interest is so intense. “There’s a lot of good work going on in hair growth, but there’s a lot of hype in the field as well. A lot of times patients have this rollercoaster: ‘Oh, there’s a great discovery!’ ‘Oh, it didn’t work.’ Because of that, we take a relatively conservative route in terms of disclosure.”

    With regard to the drug, Ju allowed that small molecules have advantages over proteins, especially for topical applications. They are investigating drug compounds already on the market and also developing new compounds that could act on the pathways involved in hair follicular neogenesis.

    Our product is going to tap both components,” says Follica CEO William Ju. “There’s going to be a perturbation component—a device that coaxes the scalp into a state that’s receptive to pharmacologic modulation—and then, a drug component, which will push those cells into producing hair follicles.”

  • Artista

    Good post Mr Z..what stands out is this~
    ““There’s a lot of good work going on in hair growth, but
    there’s a lot of hype in the field as well. A lot of times patients have this
    rollercoaster: ‘Oh, there’s a great discovery!’ ‘Oh, it didn’t work.’ Because of
    that, we take a relatively conservative route in terms of disclosure.”
    We see that going on here on a daily basis.

    Gentlemen, they(the Big 3) are quite AWARE of the highly intensive interest related to their works.By us and their competitors. I know i would keep my staff very quiet if my R&D company(if i had one) was onto something potentially huge and life changing,not to mention very profitable! I understand the past disappointments and let downs but i do not understand the ‘doom and gloom’ that goes on here that, at times, would resort to unbecoming and insulite behavior. We have good times ahead,,,ESPECIALLY for you youngsters.

  • hopefulguy

    thank you mr.z.
    seems like great news

  • OP

    These future products seem to be for regrowth. Does that mean we will still need Propecia to maintain any regrowth from Histogen or Aderans?

    Seems stupid if I have to wait to lose all my hair just to regrow it again.

  • herzog

    Youngsters?

    How old are you Artista? If you don’t mind me asking…

  • Artista

    Lets just say that I am old enough to know better but too young to die. (a middle-ager)

    Oh by the way guys,,i will not be able to attend the June 14th event. Life gets in the way as always.

  • Maverick

    “These future products seem to be for regrowth. Does that mean we will still need Propecia to maintain any regrowth from Histogen or Aderans?

    Seems stupid if I have to wait to lose all my hair just to regrow it again.”

    Nope, I do not believe we will have to use that BS, anymore. Propecia was not all that effective anyway. Many people lost their frontal hair even using the Propecia. Propecia is going to the place where all other similar “therapies” of the past went, such as blood-letting and hot irons for hemorrhoids, to the trashcan of history.

  • tk

    “Our product is going to tap both components,” says Follica CEO William Ju. “There’s going to be a perturbation component—a device that coaxes the scalp into a state that’s receptive to pharmacologic modulation—and then, a drug component, which will push those cells into producing hair follicles.”

    I stand corrected. So they are still going after that route. This is wonderful news. It seemed that they were investigating so many options that the dermabrasion method wasn’t working so well.

    For once it feels good being wrong.

  • tk

    @Maverick,

    Been on Finasteride for more than 15 years. I went from NW2 to NW5 on it.

    Case closed.

  • herzog

    Was on propecia for 10 years. It maintained my hairline, even thickened it.

    Wish I could say it did the same for my penis.
    Nasty stuff that Propecia.

  • tk

    @herzog,
    You’re one lucky guy if Propecia worked so well for you.
    But what happened down there? Is it just loss of libido or do you have any damage?
    I’ve never had any problems like this on Finasteride. Then again, I still lost all my hair while on it.

  • OP

    Ah ok. Great.

    Can anyone in simple terms explain how Histogen would work without Propecia.

    I have a full head of hair, except for a very very thin crown. When I stop Propecia my head itches and gets inflamed. Then hair falls.

    How would Histogen or Aderans stop DHT attacking the current follicles?

    Would I need to lose all my current follicles and then replace them with non-sensitive follicles?

  • Maverick

    @herzog

    When I did my personal research about Propecia and saw all the pros/cons, I decided not to use it. I mean, the potential long term damage is way much higher than poor benefits with hair. My philosophy is also not to buy pricy half-cocked products. If all men in the world would boycott those products, companies would lose all their money and be forced to make something that will actually help people. Would you buy a car without an engine for a full price? I know that I would not.

  • herzog

    That’s a good question OP.

    If we still need an anti androgen with HST, I will probably use topical RU with a derma roller.

    Hopefully we won’t.

  • tk

    If HST works like they said it would (i.e. repeat treatments are possible), then you could just get booster shots once in a while when more hair falls out.

    This has better be cheap, because we will need a lot of injections throughout our lives.

    Unfortunately I believe it will be very expensive at first for people with significant balding.

    But for people with thinning hair, HST could very well be a cure. For NW 4 and up, who knows? Here’s crossing my fingers.

  • Z79

    Just copying my post at hairsite:

    Found some info on the ongoing Follica trial (it is a phase 2 trial according to the advanced search engine):
    https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/

    They are testing dermabrasion plus 8% lithium cream. It started july 21st last year in Germany so it must have ended by now, the endpoint data is at 168 days.
    I tried dermabrasion plus a 8% Lithium cream two months ago without getting any terminal or vellus hair growth so this information is kind of dissapointing for me. I used the lithium patent as my protocol and was hoping they were testing something other altogether.

    Click on “DE” for more protocol details.

  • tk

    That’s an amazing find Z79! You’ve got guts for trying this protocol by yourself. How did you actually perform the dermabrasion? Perhaps it wasn’t deep enough? I’ve heard that it must be deep enough for the scalp to bleed in other to put the cells in the right state.

    What’s interesting is that they are using advanced NW3V, 4 and 5 in their study. This is a rather encouraging sign.

    It’s strange that it’s a phase 2 trial. They really are working in silence.

    The big question mark that remains for me is why are they starting to investigate other means of growing hair? Or perhaps they are just trying to get patents here and there?

    But the fact that they are targetting advanced Norwoods and that Ju is still talking about dermabrasion is good news. So maybe we’ll wake up tomorrow morning with a cure…

    …or maybe just more hair on our pillows.

  • Z79

    I used a fine sandpaper, and oh yes, it was bleeding. If that is deep enough remains unknown, but a treatment that removes more tissue than I did would be messy and not very practical.
    I think we have to wait and see if Follica decides to make the trial data public, at least they have it by now for sure.

  • tk

    Z79,
    Be careful with that sanding paper. HSC might not work well if you fill up your scalp with fibrotic tissue.

  • herzog

    Wow. Follica has completed phase II trials.
    And they completed them 5 months ago.

    I kind of can’t believe it.

    If they are on phase 2, that means they already have proof of concept. It says that this phase tested “Safety, Efficacy, Pharmacokinetics and Theraputic Exploration.”

    What is meant by Pharmacokinetics?

  • Shooter

    Herzog, I think pharmacokinetics studies how the body absorbs, distributes and dismisses drugs that are ingested/applied.

  • Shooter

    Also, I just wanna say a quick thanks to Z79 who has done some outstanding research for us lately. I really appreciate all your input.

    It’s good to know that Follica is still moving forward. It’s been a really long, difficult ride for a lot of the posters on this thread (I still can’t get over the fact that it was more than three years ago when the first article was published), and I just hope that we all have something tangible to get exciteed about by the end of 2011.

    Fingers crossed, as always.

  • herzog

    Anyone going to see Cotsarelis speak in Philly on Tuesday?

  • rev

    Indeed. Many thanks Z79.

    I’m obliged to repurpose the use of my fingers from flipping to crossing in light of these latest developments.

  • Jacob

    Thanks for posting that Z79, like everyone else has said I really appreciate it.

  • Ryan

    Fantastic find Z79, if anyone from Follica is reading don’t panic, we’re not getting our hopes up, it’s just nice to know it’s moving along. Hopefully they’re getting the results we’ve been waiting for.

  • OP

    @ Herzog

    I hope we don’t need an anti androgen but I think we will for Histogen and Follica.

    I think these treatments are for regrowth, like super powerful versions of minoxidil(i.e regrowth only).

    I am not sure about Aderans or an Acell transplant – these may work because using follicles resistant to androgens.

    However I don’t think any of the above will be long term solutions without a powerful anti androgen like Propecia.

    I hope I am wrong and I encourage anyone to prove me wrong.

  • Boston

    @OP

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2011031990A1.html

    Check section [00299] to [00305].

    In the patent Follica discuss ‘reprogramming’ the follicles.

    Also, Hair Follicle Stem Cells (FSCs)

    [00299]
    Integumental perturbation produces in the affected skin tissue an increase in the number of hair follicle stem cells and in the plasticity of hair follicle cells, such that resident hair follicles may be reprogrammed.

    [00302]
    FSCs generate new hair follicles that preserve the type of hair follicle that is typical for each location of skin or scalp. For example, FSCs from the coronal scalp of a male with MPHL typically generate atrophic follicles with vellus or club hairs. In contrast, FSCs from the occipital scalp of the same male typically generate follicles with terminal hair that are not subject to involution in response to DHT.

    [00303]
    However, if external signals are provided that interfere with this “default” program, the FSCs responsible for follicle formation may be reprogrammed.
    For example, FSCs from the coronal scalp of a male with MPHL, under the influence of estrogen, can generate follicles with terminal hair that are not subject to involution in response to DHT.

  • tk

    @OP,
    The Histogen study clearly shows that existing hairs are made stronger by HSC. Of course, you would probably need some booster shots once in a while, pretty much like botox and dermal fillers.

    Honestly, that doesn’t matter to me, as long as it grows hair on bald areas.

  • spyder

    Z79 6/7/11 6:33 am
    Forget about the lithium patent, this has to be what they are going for in the clinical trial.
    “The present disclosure provides methods and systems that increase the number of hair-producing follicles on a body surface by two-fold or more, representing a valuable treatment for subjects suffering from male- or female-pattern hair loss”
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<
    @Z79, did you dig a little deeper? I did it. A thinning or slick bald aga effected scalp needs in the very first step what Cotsarelis and his team recently found out – healthy and non aga-effected hair cells. Because for the existing ones, the game is simply over (earlier or later). Step 2, and that’s a really novel approach, ones you have a certain amount of healthy and non aga-effected follicles in a certain area, they “simply” (rather a technical complex procedure!) try to multiply those healthy follicle in situ, to increase their number until a patient is satisfied. That’s all. It’s not something most guys expect from a “hair loss cure” (simply injecting something and hairs grow over night), but it’s a realistic approach without the need for any further transplantations (1st step) from any donor area. I think their biggest hurdles are to get as soon as possible approval for the devices, rather than for any involved drugs.

  • lurker

    I’ve said it all along, Follica will be the game changer. They weren’t dumb about showing their cards. This is business, after all.

    Anyway, I still don’t understand how their approach will work on a hairline. Can someone explain that to me?

  • tk

    @spyder,
    According to Ju’s latest comments in Nature, it looks like they are still going for dermabrasion and lithium. Right now it’s unclear what the in vivo multiplication patent means.

    The greatest hope of Follica was that it could grow hair in slick bald areas. If that hope goes away, then it might be no better than HSC in the end.

    Mind you, I still believe HSC will be the best thing out there.

  • Z79

    If splitting healthy hair follicles in the scalp with a laser works, without needing a drug for both parts of the follicle to grow healthy hairs, then I dont see why such a non medical treatment would not become available to patients in the near future. But what do I know? I prefer not to speculate about matters I have no known facts about.

    I do like the progress Follica seem to be making right now and I am looking forward to any new information they give us (or we can dig up…).
    Maybe more news will come tomorrow from Cotsarelis?

  • spyder

    @tk – remember what Follica’s CEO Mr Ju said: “Ju would not discuss specifics of the trial design, in part because consumer interest is so intense. “There’s a lot of good work going on in hair growth, but there’s a lot of hype in the field as well. A lot of times patients have this rollercoaster: ‘Oh, there’s a great discovery!’ ‘Oh, it didn’t work.’ Because of that, we take a relatively conservative route in terms of disclosure.”

    And Lurker is also right: “They weren’t dumb about showing their cards. This is business, after all.”

    But Follica finally showed their cards (the only legit source ARE patents!). That’s the reason why I asked whether someone else is aware about all that what I previously wrote – and all that is no shyt. I’m surprised myself.

  • julian

    And they(Follica)´re calling it a PRODUCT now!!! They´re already refering to it as a product!! did you notice?!:… “Our product is going to tap both components,” says Follica CEO William Ju. “There’s going to be a perturbation component—a device that coaxes the scalp into a state that’s receptive to pharmacologic modulation—and then, a drug component, which will push those cells into producing hair follicles.”

  • julian

    …The way they put it really gives a sense that it´s close!!! I may be wrong but I think there´s something in the air… These are statements that seem really confident and that´s a good sign.

  • OP

    Well it does sound interesting. I would love to come off Propecia soon as possible.

    There seem to be some exciting products heading our way in the next 4 – 10 years.

  • Lurker

    Herzog,

    I have a question for you and an apology. Ealier in the thread, I doubted you on Rogaine causing wrinkles, dark spots, etc. I have recently really tried to examine my face and have noticed that you may be right. My forehead lines have probably increased, I’ve also noticed a bit more dark circles under my eyes. These could simply be from aging (and lack of sleep, I have a new born). But, I’m assuming you’re probably right that Rogaine does contribute.

    So, here’s my question. I know you recommend stopping Rogaine. I can’t take Propecia, so I’m somewhat forced to stay on Rogaine. Can you give me a good idea of some facial products to take to try to cancel out the negative effects associated with Rogaine?

    Thanks,

    Lurker

  • tk

    All these news are really far more encoyraging than I thought mere days ago. Yet, anyone who is using this information as an excuse not to use minoxidil or Propecia is making a grave mistake IMHO.

    That’s why I always prefer to have conservative expectations. Been burned too many times.

    And you need to keep as much hair as possible so that these procedures work better. So use the meds, or at least saw palmetto and also, watch your diet! Cutting all refined sugars is really important for hair loss sufferers.

  • Iwantsomehair

    Hopefully we get a little more insight in the coming hours about Cot’s presentation…..

  • herzog

    Lurker and tk

    Still using minox is understandable. After a huge shed last week I started it again. Only once a day and in the morning so it doesn’t get all over my pillow and my face while I sleep.

    I feel ok with this because after quitting for a month my face tightened up a bit, so it seems slightly reversible after cessation.

    I also just started using RU with a derma roller. I ordered it from canada. Check hairsite for instructions on how to mix\use it.

    Obviously any sort of collagen producing routine helps (vitamin c masks…) as well as daily witch hazel in the morning to tighten your pours. That’s right… I’m man enough to discuss this :-)

    Also, tk is absolutely right. The two main causes of aging are sunlight and sugar. I stopped eating refined sugars about a year ago. It’s a bit of a lifestyle change but totally doable. You’ll feel and look amazing (after having the mother of all headaches for about a 10 days). Also, eat lots of rich leafy greens. Can’t be emphasized enough.

    Obviously we do the best we can in life. I’m certainly not perfect with my approach to diet and fitness. Just figured I’d chime in cuz you asked :-)

    Sorry to blab here.

  • OP

    @tk

    I don’t intend to stop Propecia until either a replacement product comes along or I change to RU instead.

  • tk

    I stopped sugar completely about a month and a half ago just by popping a chromium supplements every day. Cravings disappeared completely. I had a bad eating disorder for years, and it vanished by just using chromium and cutting all sweets.

    Number one thing to do for hair loss: low insulin diet. I believe high insulin from refined carbs and sugars is the primary reason why some people go prematurally bald. Look around and you’ll see a lot of fat bald guys who are still rather young.

    Genetics plays a huge role, of course, but lifestyle factors accelerate and trigger the condition.

    Remember that even the new Follica or Histogen hairs will be somewhat vulnerable to DHT. So a healthy diet and lifestyle will help retain your future investment’s value.

    Anybody using Rogaine foam? So much nicer than the solution for me. I just switched to it, since Dr Lee was forced out of business by the FDA. I think it might be working better than Xandrox, since it seems to penetrate much more. I’ll see what happens in a couple of months. Hoping for the best.

  • lurker

    Herzog and tk,

    Thanks gents. I’m going to look into some of the products you mentioned.

  • hopeful

    hope that someone here have gone to cotsarelis´s speech today

  • Shooter

    Found this, although it’s not very helpful: http://www.sciencecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LFHM_Cotsarelisl-6-14-11.jpg

    I also sent a query to the e-mail contact, so hopefully that will elicit some response. Frankly, it just looks like another academic “look what I did!!!” presentation.

  • allan

    george came out with press on jan 4 2011, 5.5 months after july 21 2010 maybe good sign?

  • Ryan

    I saw some posts on Hairsite earlier from someone who said they had seen George Cotsarelis on a Greek TV station talking about Follica, and he said something about they are moving forward with his findings and they were very close to what we want but they had to do trials oversees because the FDA was slowing them down. Nothing that we probably didn’t know but interesting if it was true. Someone has asked the poster to try and get a link for the show and the person who posted said he’ll try. I don’t know if it was an old interview or recent.

  • tk

    @Ryan,
    When was that interview? I thought it was pretty old stuff.

    The picture in the link is truly amazing. It shows that Follica, contrary to what I believed merely days ago, haven’t failed in their dermabrasion effort. This is really exciting stuff. I really wasn’t expecting this.

    So I guess you guys were right to be optimistic about Follica. I’m sure glad I was wrong with this one.

    All on board for our hairy futures!

  • Ryan

    tk – I don’t know how old it is, the poster said he would email them, I get the feeling it was an old interview.

  • C

    To the posters saying they’ll stay on propecia till something better comes along – wait until you try and get off it, especially after long term use. For me and thousands of others every day is now a living nightmare after taking this poison. The problems come when you stop. Believe me if this happens to you the last thing you’ll care about is your hair. Not trying to scare anyone but please be careful.

  • herzog

    Same here C. In case there’s any confusion to what he’s talking about, my dick won’t stay hard. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

  • Mr. Z

    @tk

    “The picture in the link is truly amazing. It shows that Follica, contrary to what I believed merely days ago, haven’t failed in their dermabrasion effort. This is really exciting stuff. I really wasn’t expecting this”

    What picture and link are you referring to?

  • OP

    @Mr. Z

    He means the flyer you linked to. It is a jpeg.

    http://www.sciencecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LFHM_Cotsarelisl-6-14-11.jpg

  • Mr. Z

    Thanks OP

  • Shooter

    A large Aderans investor just purchased about 400,000 more shares. Perhaps a good sign?

    http://pdf.irpocket.com/C8170/ydRw/txPu/GdiE.pdf

  • spyder

    @Shooter – maybe they produce a new wig collection …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI

  • Iwantsomehair

    It would be nice to get an update from the speech earlier this week….?

  • Shooter

    Iwantsomehair, you know that’s never gonna happen.

  • victimofdht

    C, are you sure? Because there was a time when I decided to stop Fin for a couple of months and nothing happened.In facts, I did that more than once and… No side effects. Of course there were no side effects on it either, even after a decade of using it. No side effects even with Dut (was on it for almost a year and half). Please don’t talk like what you’re saying is a fact. Because it’s NOT.

  • julian

    why cotsarelis´s speach isn´t on youtube..
    so sad… i think follica will show us something in 2 years

  • Jacob

    It’s unlikely that we will hear anything about that discussion now unfortunately, Follica must know by now what potential their method has. Hopefully they’ll be in phase 3 trials soon, they usually take the longest of any trials but they seem to have gone through phase 2 quite fast so if we’re lucky phase 3 will be the same story.

  • KKwilliams

    WHAT?

    Follica have already completed phase II? I thought they were still a long ways away from even starting real trials. If they are already done Phase 2 that is great news

  • abraoo

    are you sure??i tought they were developing their products yet

  • Shooter

    Lol, did you guys miss the previous discussion?

    Z79 found a clinical trial application from Follica (they were doing it in Germany). Phase 2 started in July of 2010 and ended approximately 168 days thereafter (although the application indicated that it might continue for a full year).

  • I contacted the hair science institute about when they expect to offer their hair stem cell injections and this is the response I received (english isn’t perfect):

    Dear mr. ________, It’s during 1 to 1 ½ year for introducing the Hair Stem Cell Injection procedure.We let you know when this technique is available in our clinic. I hope that I have given you sufficient information for the time being. However, if you have any questions, you could contact me by E-mail m.verreussel@hasci.com Kind regards Marleen VerreusselTeam Hair Science Institute

  • C

    VictimofDHT – you’re very lucky then. Go to the Propeciahelp website and have a good look round there. You don’t work for Merck do you? We had another suicide recently because of all this.

    I’d list all of my symptoms but it would take you 20 minutes to read.

  • tk

    @oddone,
    What exactly are you talking about? Is this a new therapy, different from HST? From your description, it sounds like good old Hair Multiplication to me.

    Please fill us in!

  • @ tk,

    I’m assuming it’s somewhat similar to the procedure Replicel plans on introducing based on it’s description. Gather hair stem cells from qualified donor site/hair, possibly multiply them and then inject them into the scalp where they will grow and form new, permanent hairs. If you have any more questions I’d suggest contacting the email address I listed in my first post, or just list them here and I’ll send them along to her.

    Here is the link to the website/procedure description:

    http://www.hasci.com/homepage.aspx

  • KKwilliams

    @Shooter

    yes I guess I totally missed that following had finished phase 2 already That is unbelievable. Any Idea how it went or any juicy data or pics available? So if hings went well why is it still so quiet from follica? either they are on the verge or they hit major issues in phase 2?

    If things went well in the phase 2 trials doesn’t that mean follica could be an available treatment within 2 years?

  • Happy1

    Sometimes they release a product while still in phase 2 testing.
    Sometimes they run phases concurrently.
    Follica could already in Phase 3. Could even be finished with it…
    Or they may have had to start over. No-one knows. No-one will, until a formal announcement is made.

  • Shooter

    @KK

    Well, if Phase 2 went well and it ended at the beginning of this year, then Phase 3 could definitely be finished two years from the present date.

    In fact, if that’s the case, that would make the timeline in this article http://www.fiercebiotech.com/special-reports/emerging-drug-developer-follica remarkably accurate.

    Unfortunately, even though Follica has had at least a couple opportunities to talk about their results (recent article + Cotsarelis’s recent conference), they still haven’t made anything public.

    It is very possible that their first method (the one that has completed Phase 2) was not successful, and that is what all these other methods/patents are for. In that case, we’re still in for a long wait.

    After 4 years of this craziness (you’ll recall that the very first news about Follica came out in May of 2007) I personally find it impossible to be optimistic about Follica. That’s not to say that they aren’t up to something good. I just hate speculating about this company.

  • Juliano

    i agree with u shooter…
    something didn´t go well at follica and they are trying to fix it… so they lost some years on it

  • julian

    … or maybe not!

  • Jacob

    I don’t think Follica’s first method has been unsuccessful, they must have an idea by now how humans react to it anyway, in January when the University of Penn published their paper about the role of progenitor cells in baldness Follica said it supported their earlier findings, and that was nearly 6 months into phase 2 trials. Surely if they were having problems they wouldn’t have said anything?

  • jjj

    any news??

  • victimofdht

    No news, jjj. I know the despair. I’m so desperate too that I check this site and all the other sites many times a day.

    I hope the miracle happens and one of these companies break the good news. Either that or I pray to god that I die before I lose my hair. No way in hell I can live with this curse.

  • tk

    @victim,
    How is your hair now? Have you considered getting a high end hair piece to help with the wait? I’m thinking of doing that myself.

  • spyder

    A wig? No Gho, no Follica and no Histogen??

  • tk

    @spyder,
    These therapies you mention are far from being generally available. If a wig prevents so from being depressed, what’s the problem?

    George Clooney, Tom Cruise, Matthew McConnehey and Enrique Eglesias can’t all be wrong , can they? If they had waited around for Follica, they would be unknowns now. (Yes, they all wear, and it’s pretty obvious for anyone who knows about hair pieces.)

  • Caddillac

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cure-male-pattern-baldness-10-years/story?id=12555095

    hadn’t seen this before but its a possible cure for hairloss within the next 10 years and it looks like it is using Dr. C from follica as its source. The follica guys flip flop so much it is disgusting. The 10 year timeline is based of the earlier findings that all we need to do is reactivate the progenitor cells.

    God im tired. Is follica really 10 years away? I thought they had just finished phase 2!

    I guess its back to rooting for histogen and 2015

  • spyder

    @tk, sorry, my prior post was just a bit sarcastic. Sure, a wig or hair piece can be THE solution for a lot of people out there. But also for very young baldies in their 20s?

    A little bit reality:
    Without any details, every topical/ superficial hair loss solution simply can’t work and will not work – not even in 10 or 20 years or at all. Maybe there will be some products on the market which are able to prolong the anagen phase of existing hairs or which are able to thicken your existing hairs (something like Minoxidil or Biomatoprost or similar products), but none of them will and can’t give you THE results you’re looking for.
    The coming years will be the era of realistic “high tech” microsurgical procedures (something what Dr. Gho is doing or Follica at the moment is testing or in addition ARI’s final product or a combination thereof), but surely nothing what you simply can rub on your bald head or any “injection” procedures (ACell/PRP, Histogen, RepliCell etc). Believe it or not – that’s the reality for the coming 10 years.

  • victimofdht

    tk,I’m still shedding but just a little less than a couple of months back, but still shedding close to 100 hairs a day. This isn’t normal for me. I usually shed less than 50 a day. But the damage is done and my hairline looks thin now. You wouldn’t believe it’s the same hairline from 3 months ago. This is so baffling and I’m completely devastated. What’s scaring the hell out of me is what if it keeps going.

    I don’t know man, hair pieces… I don’t think they’ll work for me. I still have good coverage behind the hairline too. But I think hair pieces are too much work, costly and there’s a good chance they won’t match the color or quality of your hair.

  • Artista

    Caddy’ That is relatively old news, interesting, but old(Jan 2011). I would not be reliant to that information regarding the time frame mentioned. This particular science is very progressive.

  • tk

    @spyder,
    No solution in the next 10 years? Speak for yourself! I’m having great success with pigeon dung and mayonaise at the moment. This must count for something.
    Seriously, I kinda agree with you, but just HST and Gho is amazing in itself. With lots of $$$ and a bit of patience, you can get pretty good coverage.
    In the meantime, we can all get those fancy private stretchers and impress the ladies.
    Anyway, back o making more special mixtures…

  • Caddillac

    I just dont understand Dr C and follica. His latest(6 months ago)timeline said we could see a treatment withing 1o years! This is after the latest findings that balding areas have the same number of stem cells as regular joes.

    But now we have found out that Follica has completed phase 2 trials. doesnt this mean if trial results were good that coming to market within 2-3 years?
    Is Dr C just messing with us and other companies or have trials gone very poorly and now they are back pedaling. I am completely lost when it comes to anything follica at this point.

  • Maverick

    I think Dr. C deserves a good kick in the ass. The same thing goes with Daphne, but first somebody should hack her twitter account, draw her a mustache and beard styled like musketeers and change the password so she cannot access it. That should get some answers for the start. For further measures you will be noted.

  • victimofdht

    First, what’s wrong with the site? I type something and click the “publish” button but nothing shows or the page takes forever to load. I’ve been trying for the past two days and it only worked once with my last paragraph after so many attempts.

    I’m not sure if this will go thru but if it does, what can you guys tell me about PRP? I’m seriously thinking about trying it. I can’t stand looking in the mirror now and I can only imagine what it’d be like if this shed continues.
    Thanks for asking, tk.

  • Z79

    This tiny info is Histogen related but many people follow them as well.
    Some may know that histogen has been doing some case studies (nothing to do with the phase 2 trials) where patients received multiple injections over a larger area. I emailed Histogen and asked about that and the recent presentation they did in May regarding HSC. This is their answer:

    “In response to your inquiry, no new data was released at the recent event so it is unlikely there will be any announcements around that. However, please do look for updates on the HSC clinical trial and case studies, as well as the oncology project, this summer”

  • Guest1

    @caddillac- Dr. C was not referring to Follica’s approach with regard to the 10 year timeline. He was speaking about how long it would take for scientists to learn/understand how to reprogram stem cells into progenitor cells. In essence, the “real” cure for baldness.

    Do not confuse Follica’s perturbation approach with the progenitor re-activation approach. They may utilize the same mechanisms, as Dr. J stated, but scientists have not yet discovered how to manually reactivate those stem cells.

    In 07 or 08, Cotaarelis stated in an interview that the Follica-specific approach of perturbation would come to market in 3-5 years. The progress made by Follica to-date indicates he was a bit optimistic, but still accurate.

    My prediction, we will know Follica’s cards within 1-1.5 years. I expect a major move in Q3 2012 to Q1 2013.

  • Caddillac

    @Guest1- Thats a very optimistic interpretation on his comments.

    Follica possible release 2013/14 since they are finished phase 2 trials ALTHOUGH Dr. C comments of 10 years seriously worry me that follicas approach has major problems.

    Histogen possible release 2014/2015. By far my favorite due to the great preclinical results. Plus the lawsuit against them by skin medica seems dealt with.

    Regenica possible release 2020? Too early to tell but regardless it is a long way away.

    On a side note all of these companies have their websites and their little videos of how their approach would work. I dont put too much stock in those videos lol. I could make my own high tech looking video of the corn hair loss treatment where I inject cells from corn on the cob into your head and it causes hairs to reawaken, it doesn’t mean it has a hope in hell of working lol.

    IMO histogen is our best hope in any short-term (2-5) years.

  • tk

    Regenica is the old name for Histogen. Now they use it for skin rejuvenation. No way it will be as late as 2020. 2014-15 at worst.
    Did you mean Replicel? It’s actually already out in another dimension. The problem is that there are no girls in that dimension…

  • Caddillac

    Yes I meant Relicel release 2020. So many names lol I mixed them up. Thanks for pointing out my error.

  • julian

    Despite all comments I keep my bet on Follica´s treatment. And I bet on it coming much sooner than the pessimists think it will! wait and see!!

  • Metsie

    Agreed Julian. Alot of expensive people working for Follica looking to get paid.

  • Artista

    Deluxe,,how is everything with you? I recently contacted Dr K’s office.

  • odd

    The thing about Replicel that pisses me off is that I don’t believe they have to go through all the phases of clinical trials before they come to market since they aren’t using any new drugs. BUT, they are choosing to go the long route.

    “RepliCel has created a proprietary method for extracting and, replicating dermal sheath cup cells, with the goal of developing a safe minimally invasive procedure …..Although the procedure is not a drug therapy, in order to be extremely rigorous, RepliCel’s clinical trials will follow pharmaceutical development stages. ”

    After determining that it is a safe procedure they don’t really need to continue with the phase 2 and 3 and all the follow up years later before they come to market with it. They could commericialize it in the EU since that’s where the safety study was done or in a country like costa rica or india that is known for medical tourism and begin to generate revenue while refining the process at the same time and not making us wait 5-7 more years for the last goddamn clinical follow up appointments/data to roll in.

    I understand wanting to perfect the procedure, but they could at least bring it to market if it is safe and has very positive results and just continue to refine the procedure as needed in a clinical setting simultaneously.

    I emailed them to ask if they have plans for early commercialization such as I described, but never received a response back.

  • spyder

    Replicel aka Trichoscience?
    Their dermal sheath cup (DSC) science doesn’t work, at least not in AGA affected skin.

    From their research paper they published in 2003:
    http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602058a.html

    “The results indicate transplanted DP and DSC cells were equally capable of DP formation and hair follicle induction. This suggests the DP and peribulbar DSC may be functionally similar.”

    Right, dermal papilla (DP) cells and dermal sheath cup (DSC) cells work functionally similar. This means that the outcome, if you inject DSC cells into AGA affected skin, will be the same as the Intercytex results – zero, zilch, nada.

    Immediately after publication of their DSC findings, Dr. Colin Jahoda analysed and commented their research paper and findings:
    http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html

    Jahoda finally concluded (last paragraph):
    “Thus, McElwee’s paper, having raised the prospect of being able to augment follicle size by recruitment, is balanced by Tobin’s evidence of movement of dermal cells not only within the follicle, but outside to the dermis. In skin undergoing androgenetic alopecia, there is the possibility that the balance of migration is altered and incontinence of dermal sheath cells to the skin dermis leads to reduction in size of the dermal papilla, and in turn to miniaturization of the follicle structure. If this leakage is the result of signals from a dermal environment unique to this region of skin, then addition of cells by recruitment might only be postponing the inevitable.”

    In simple words, injections of DP or DSC cells would just “postponing the inevitable” (=AGA) for very short period of time, if at all. The problem is the androgenetic alopecia affected skin/tissue itself.

  • Guest2

    I do not understand where julian and metsies blind faith comes from. Follica has released no data whatsoever.

    ” julian
    6/28/11 2:16 pm

    Despite all comments I keep my bet on Follica´s treatment. And I bet on it coming much sooner than the pessimists think it will! wait and see!!”

    you do realize this makes it sound as if you believe follica will come to market in 1-2 years at most. I hope you are not setting yourself up for major disappointment.

  • julian

    Can I keep my bet since I don´t see yet any reason for such pessimism? Quite the contrary. you call my opinion blind faith? yours could be called blind distrust as well, I think. Cause they haven´t released any data so far you just assume they´ve failed or they´re not moving forward??? My point is that from what we get to know here and there they seem to be progressing and there´s reason to believe it won´t take long. Other than that, we can only wait and cross our fingers.

  • Deluxe

    Artista,

    How is it going? Things are growing on my end. I’m currently reaching the 4 month mark on July 2nd. The grafts have been growing, and hopefully they keep getting thicker. I’m trying not to pay attention to it too much. Did you send pictures to Dr. Konior? I would really advise you go in and see him. Did he give you an estimate of how many grafts you will need? Let me know if you have questions. My scar is pretty thin and I dont have much of that scar “step” that I had from my previous strip, which Dr. K extracted. I see my hairline filling in slowly and new hairs still sprouting. I think I’m at about 30-40% growth right now.

    I’m still on TRX2, but I have not seen much of an effect yet. Others using it are calling it a scam (prematurely in my opinion), while a few others are noticing a difference. To anyone reading here, I would advise that you DO NOT PURCHSE TRX2 YET. It is a good amount of money to invest in something that may not even work. Results should be coming out in Q3, so it is wise to hold off to see that and then decide for yourselves.

  • onionbagger

    first of all well said julian , your comments( blind faith) or not are uplifting ,ive learned fairly quickly what this and other sites have in common ,optimism and scepticism and for all the speculation on timelines and treatments not one of us really knows how things will pan out for hairloss ,julian in ten years time (god forbid) if we still have nothing it wont be a major disappointment cause ill still be optimistic for the year after that and so on and so on because of optimistic people like yourself, so thankyou for giving me and im sure lots of other people hope (founded or unfounded)id rather look at the glass half full cheers.

  • DBS

    In the past, I posted with some regularity and was one of the few who remained positive about the potential of Follica and Cotsarelis. Goodness knows I took some heat from the perpetual gloom and doomers.

    Needless to say, I feel my longer term view of Follica was correct. While other companies were hyping mediocre results to great fanfare, I said it was entirely likely Follica was conducting serious work under the radar.

    Follica is the best hope to move the science of hairloss forward. They have serious people with serious resumes. Much to the surprise of the “in the know people” here, they have conducted two series of trials and added marketing staff.

    To make the assumption phase II failed because we’ve not heard about it is totally without fact. We didn’t know phase I took place, yet it must have been reasonably successful. Don’t forget Cotsarelis mentioned his findings about pregenitor cells until six months after the fact.

    I think Follica and Cotsarelis are making great headway and will change how we view hairloss treatment within the next five years.

  • spyder

    From another hair loss board …

    Patient: Mr. Grant Romundt (ScissorBoy)

    Scissorboy Undergoes Stem Cell Hair Restoration
    http://scissorboy.posterous.com/scissorboy-undergoes-stem-cell-hair-restorati

    Pre-op – preparations
    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1825234944481

    25 second trailer of ScissorBoy Stem Cell Episode…
    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1949296525943

    The Hair Stem Cell Episode with Dr. Coen Gho
    http://www.scissorboy.com/video/index/122/-1/all/40

    Post-op – What to do after Stem Cell Hair Restoration
    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1828517466542

  • rev

    I feel obliged to offer tk my apologies. I was wrong to accuse him of being Iron_man’s alias after skimming spyder’s post..

    Look spyder/Iron_man/whatever you call yourself elsewhere… nobody gives a fukk about Gho. You must-have this place mistaken with Hairsite…. where thinly disguised ads pass for worthwhile editorial.

  • spyder

    rev, just because it’s not interesting for you, this doesn’t mean it’s not interesting for MANY others!!

    I just found some more videos – and explanations …
    http://scissorboylive.com/category/hair-restoration-techniques/

  • spyder

    Hey rev, I just checked your arguments. I’ve never ever been a typical HS member, but it seems YOU and your comments sounds like a typical HS member (;-))

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frWZsjVFynM

    So please rev, don’t act like a typical HS member and other xconomy readers already recommended you the same in this thread. Peace!

  • herzog

    I don’t care about Gho. We’re talking about non surgical advances here. Plenty of those to discuss.

  • spyder

    Any examples? Please let me know.

  • Anyone

    i´m pretty sure that spyder is from hair site…
    We don´t care about gho

  • rev

    Spyder/Iron_man, haven’t you ruined enough sites with your Gho crap already? Lay-off spamming xconomy, or we’ll have you reported. This isn’t hairsite; they actually moderate this site.

  • tk

    Thanks spyder! Those videos are amazing! They made my week-end!
    When Gho releases his HSI procedure, we will be even closer to a cure. The amazing thing is when this technique will be performed by other doctors than Gho.
    There is a surgical cure to baldness right now, and that is amazing. Expensive, unpractical, lengthy, but it is looking more real and legit by the day.
    If HSC is released in three years, I am going straight for it, and whatever doesn’t regrow, I’ll have HSI done.
    I don’t know about Replicel, but if Follica has something nice eventually, then we’ll start having even more options.

  • rev

    HSI is just another HT gimmick. Again, if you want to talk about this garbage than I suggest paying hairsite a visit. I will not tolerate having this place ruined by Iron_man.

  • tk

    rev,
    You’re the one who is ruining this place now. You are vulgar and rude. There is a place like Hairsite if you want to act like that.

    “I will not tolerate having this place ruined by Iron_man.”

    Since when is this your forum?

    We are discussing cutting edge hairloss treatments here. Not to make this the focus here, but HST deserves a mention from time to time.

    You seem to have some psychological issues if you take this internet bickering so seriously.

  • rev

    tk… and you’re clueless to Iron_man’s underhanded tactics.

    Somehow, along the way, you’ve deluded yourself into thinking HSI is considerably better than a standard FUE session – it’s not, and most of us didn’t come here to talk about HTs. HSI isn’t a cutting edge treatment; it’s a cutting edge HT advertising campaign.

  • tk

    rev,

    Listen, we will see in 6 months if Gho is lying or not. This is when other teams will be able to license the procedure. If the results can be independently verified, then Gho has the only method of growing hair that is available now.
    I have no idea if spyder is Iron_Man or not. I don’t care, and I have no idea why you hate the guy so much.
    I come here to know about all the latest hair restoration research. HST and HSI are part of that, so I’m glad I can learn about them here. The videos posted by spyder are really quite interesting, because they do not come from the HT field, but rather from a hairdresser. They are quite relevant, unlike some bickering that is now taking place here.
    I feel like I am polluting this forum by participating in this bickering myself, so I will end this right here.

  • Ryan

    I’m with rev on this, I’m not interested in gho, hairsite is a mess with bullshit threads about his stuff. If you want to talk about him go on there.

  • Jacob

    tk, if you want to talk about Gho go to Hairsite, it’s not relevant on here, the guy has been hanging around for a long time without delivering anything that can help the majority of people who are losing their hair. If you all want to turn this place into another transplant forum then I’m out of here, I’ve heard enough from those charlatans to last me a lifetime, I’m here to talk about a next generation treatment that will be available and offer real results to the majority of men, women and children who are going through this.

  • tk

    So Replicel shouldn’t be mentioned? They have been at this for about as long as Gho. They have nothing, nothing to show.

    Right now we have the following treatments to discuss:

    – Follica
    – Histogen
    – Replicel
    – Gho HST and HSI

    This is the cutting edge of hair restoration research. They all have a place in the discussion.

    Some people here SUFFER. I’m not talking about crying over a receding hairline, but major hairloss. Why shouldn’t they know about all the new research?

    I can’t believe how controversial Gho is. The guy promised a trip to Mars, and he is taking us to the Moon. Should we be angry or thankful?

    This place has already turned into hairsite so I will no longer post here.

  • spyder

    Damn good question, tk. Since when is xconomy rev’s forum, resp. “rev’s place”?

    And who is “we” and is “we” really just interested in “talking about non surgical advances here” – aka “wet dreams” aka wet dreams for some bucks?

    Not even FOLLICA has “wet dreams” about “non-surgical advances” anymore – at least not for the coming decades (as mentioned by julian or Guest1) and they have damn good reasons for that. FOLLICA’s advances are definitely based on Dr. Gho’s science and findings – that’s simply a fact and I already reported here on xconomy about this issue in my previous posts.

    A very brief excerpt from Follica’s papers/approaches:

    “Each portion of the ‘spliced’ follicle contains all of the biological follicular components that are necessary to generate a complete follicle and produce hair.”

    Follica’s (realistic) approach for the near future doesn’t sound like a “non-surgical advance”, that’s a fact and “rev’s place” (xconomy) is actually based on Follica’s advances/articles. So what?

  • rev

    I’m willing to entertain any treatment, and I’m more than willing to apologize if I was mistaken about something or someone, but let’s be honest with ourselves….

    Gho’s claims date back well over a decade, yet all we’ve seen from him is a handful of very wealthy patients with rather mild hairloss. That’s hardly a benchmark for a next gen treatment. I need to see several documented cases of fully restored NW5-NW7 patients supplement with quality photos of their donor area; furthermore, I need to hear how the treatment will be commercialized to fit a regular Joe’s budget. That’s my criteria for differentiating between HM and HT treatments. Pretty simple huh?

    Follica, Histogen and Replicel have the potential to meet those, afore mentioned, criteria, Gho does not. He’s failed to prove anything within the past decade, and his treatment is not scalable… it’s far too labor and cost intensive to constitute anything beneficial to 99% of hairloss sufferers.. and that’s assuming it even works.

  • Guest

    I learned about HST here. I’m glad to know about it. I won’t have it performed though. Too expensive. Looks real though. I don’t mind reading about it from time to time, honestly.

  • Metsie

    Their will always be a market for procedures like this gho crap.
    Dress it up in a new package with a pretty new bow and call it stem cell.
    Have some crafty marketing rep try to plant a seed of doubt regarding Follica and there you have it. A flock of weak minded sheep lining up ready to hand over their money.
    Go ahead kids. Same song and dance, same results.
    Nice touch NOT showing the massive wound on the back of the head.
    Where do I sign up ?

  • KKwilliams

    Im with rev. Take this gho b.s. off this site.

    At most Ive heard like 2-3 people on here voice thoughts on even having a ht done. Most people on here are more interested in upcoming treatments like follica and histogen and dont feel like getting surgical solution for lack of a better word. I dont understand why these Gho cheerleaders or shills even come onto such a small site to post this garbage.

    Even if it gives you better results than a traditional ht its still not worth the price-tag or the apparent year long waiting list. if in 3 years follica or histogen is not out and the gho stuff is legit other clinics will be doing it and for much cheaper.

  • spyder

    Really?
    Histogen
    Recently, Cotsarelis and his scientists concluded from their own and other studies they gathered and analyzed, that there is no evidence that something like Histogen’s HSC is working. Their findings suggest that “Wnt agonists would not be able to reverse androgen induced hair loss, nor can any Wnt ligands promote hair follicle neogenesis in adult skin”. It’s simply a scientifically proven fact. The latter is the reason why they never published their “thrilling” pilot study findings in a reputable medical journal, simply because the scientific background sucks.

    TrichoScience/RepliCell
    Read my previous post (6/28/11 11:51 pm). In fact, with RepliCell, you will just experience an “Intercytex déjà vu”.

    Aderans/ARI
    Normally you should see “some hairs here, some hairs there” in a few years. But surely nothing to get excited about.

    Follica
    In theory and according to their new papers and finally to my best knowledge, their “intermediate product” could perfectly work to gain high hair densities. But it’s not something what most hair loss losers expect from “a hair loss cure” (e.g. injecting some BS and hairs will grow over night for some bucks – nope).

    That’s the (scientific) reality. But feel free to speculate additional 519 posts.

  • Shooter

    Hi Spyder, can you provide the link to the patent that says Wnt overexpression doesn’t work?

  • spyder

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2011031990A1.html
    Between claim [0010] and [0015], whereby claim [0015] represents the conclusion.

  • Ryan

    That still doesn’t change the fact that Gho is full of shit and until he has something that’s available for masses is not worth talking about, keep it on hairsite Iron Man.

  • spyder

    Sorry, but the Follica scientists don’t say “Gho is full of shit”, in fact, completely the contrary – or do you need a proof for your pointless comment?

  • Shooter

    Not really sure what to make of that excerpt. If Cotsarelis knew back in 2007 that there was no causal relationship between the overexpression of Wnt and increased hair growth, why did he speak to contrary on so many interviews conducted since? Throughout 2007, 2008, and even into 2009, Cotsarelis and Follica continually mentioned increasing Wnt signalling to foster hair growth and neogenesis. That just doesn’t make sense if they knew all along that Wnt has nothing to do with the process of embryonic hair follicle development.

    Am I wrong about this?

  • spyder

    The reason for that is always the same – to get research grants/investors. That means, simply claim something, show some “exciting” mouse results to get attention (and or to mislead competitors) …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64ht1r8APo

    … and try to find out whether the BS (carrot) is really working or not later on. Intercytex practised it (almost) successfully and Histogen and RepliCell (aka “Intercytex déjà vu”) are doing completely the same. So what’s so unclear?

  • rev

    Shooter, you visit hairsite on occasion, so you should be familiar how Iron_man/spyder skews data from legitimate papers to promote HSI. Unlike HSI, he’s got his underhanded tactics down to a science.

    Iron_man/spyder, we don’t “need a proof for your pointless comment”. What we do need is for you to shut-up, and crawl back where you came from… Gho’s ass.

  • spyder

    @Shooter – do you think what rev claims is true? Please say “yes” – and you guys can move on with your “wet dreams orgies” without me.

  • Juliano

    Replicel and intercytex have some differences…

    spyder 7/2/11 3:06 pm
    … and try to find out whether the BS (carrot) is really working or not later on. Intercytex practised it (almost) successfully and Histogen and RepliCell (aka “Intercytex déjà vu”) are doing completely the same. So what’s so unclear?

  • Jacob

    Shooter, I wouldn’t jump to conclusions about that, if you read cals post on this thread on hairsite from 2008 when the original patent came out you can see even then they knew that wnt wasn’t going to be the answer to follicle neogenesis, it was just something that would increase hair shaft thickness

    http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_entry-id-19745-page-0-order-time-category-0.html

    Here’s Follica’s patent from 2008, see what it says in there about wnt, it’s not much from what I remember, I think it was just a small part of their findings. I think it was other people jumping to conclusions who mentioned wnt not Cotsarelis.

    http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/detail.jsf;jsessionid=78A1C9EA4CC688BCDEFA6E3D15335653.wapp1?docId=WO2006105109&recNum=1&tab=PCTClaims&maxRec=&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=

  • KKwilliams

    I agree that http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2011031990A1.html does not look like good news regarding follicas approach. Maybe why they are so secretive is because they are realizing their promises of a 3-5 year treatment were extremely premature based on very early findings.

    We are still in wait and see mode and if follica fails im fine with that.

    Histogen has already shown the ability to regrow hair that lasts at the minimum beyond the 1 year mark with only 1 injection of HSC although Im sure you will no doubt group them in with that wnt article anyways.

    The article you posted has merit and definitely puts serious doubts on follica having a working treatment.

    ALL that being said no one here gives two SHIRTS about Dr Gho but feel free to keep trolling.

    I love how some guy pretends to know the inner workings of 4 companies. what an assclown, maybe spyder should start a more advanced forum and leave all us idiots here

  • froggy

    It seems that there is a lot of pessimism around here.

    Some weeks ago i posted about a conference in Paris with Dr Washenik.
    I saw him on french TV and he seems to be really confident…
    This is a link to a video (extract) of this conference.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-HyF49K7qU&NR=1
    If you don’t speek french you might be able to hear Dr Washenik.

    One interesting point is that he say that he consider that if there is more than 30 hair / cm 2 then it is a first success. And at the beggining of the trial (phase 1) very few patients had this number of new hairs. But now more than 60% of the patients have 30 new hairs / cm 2 (or more).

    He also describe very well how aderans works. He compare his method to the way that the first hairs of a new born baby (without hairs) appears
    He also say that aderans used pieces of human face skin (so without hair follicle) and that he was able to grow new hairs on it.

    Again sorry for by bad english.
    I hope to be clear (it’s 5am and I am tired).

  • Ryan

    Shooter, I don’t think Cotsarellis or Follica have ever mentioned the role of wnt, not that I can remember anyway. It was people reading the patents who have been jumping to conclusions. Just reading that link Iron Man put up, where Cotsarelis is quoted, those quotes are from the Nature article in 2007 aren’t they? if they are why is it being seen as a negative? when Follica and Cotsarellis said in January that their latest study at UPENN had confirmed their earlier findings, surely that means they’ve been on the right track all along?

  • spyder

    Ryan, what the hell are you talking about??

    http://www.regenerativemedicine.net/images/PDF/hairfollicle.pdf

    “…to date, there has been no evidence that extracellular Wnt ligands can promote actual hair follicle neogenesis in adult skin.”
    (page 4, left column) – REMAINS UNTIL TODAY correct!

    After publication of Cots’ “wounding of young mice study” (2007), Histogen suddenly popped up with their Wnt bulls… complex, WITHOUT any clue about “hair science” or “hair biology”. Histogen’s claims were just based on Cotsarelis “wounding of young mice study with Wnt’s”, but whose “role in hair follicle stem cell and follicle development and hair growth is, at best, unclear” [patent claim 0015].

  • victimofdht

    spyder, so you’re saying all 4 companies are BS? So Histogen wasn’t able to grow any hair? Would you promise not to use any treatment any of these companies might invent if u think they’re all BS

  • rev

    Iron_man/ spyder. The only “bulls” I see here are your twisted comments, but since you’re quick to distort the science behind wnt signaling I suggest you watch this seminar, courtesy Elaine Fuchs.

    http://www.ascb.org/ibioseminars/includes/player.cfm?name=fuchs&num=2

  • froggy

    Sorry I’ve made a mistake about the url of the Dr Washenik’s conference.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j79WqncOAT4

    I didn’t know the guy who organised the conference. But the fact that this conference took place in the Louvre museum is a good sign about the credibility and the size of this conference. Because rent this place is very difficult and very expensive.

    The first url is about Dr Hitzig.
    It’s also interesting and very impressive but nothing new about the use of this for our problem.

  • KKwilliams

    LOL @ Rev’s go fukk yourself comment

    Hopefully histogen does optic scans and tells spyder the same thing when hsc is released. Im sure he can always get Gho procedure done lol. I feel sad for this guy just trolling forums causing shiTT

  • Ryan

    Spyder, I’m talking about Follica who you said were wrong with their first patent, the one where they were suppressing the expression of wnt for 9 days.

    You seem to be talking about Histogen.

  • NewHairFun

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/replicel-redomiciles-to-british-columbia-and-finalizes-name-and-stock-symbol-change-2011-07-01?reflink=MW_news_stmp

    Anybody willing to buy their stock?

    WTH is all that bashing about? Why all the hate? Some idiot says that histogen, ari and follica are doomed, and other idiots bash that little dutch dr for having some friggin expensive hair splitting procedure. Grow up dudes! I say the more the merrier!
    Get a f education, make some dough, and get ready to spend it. There’s a lot of runners in this race, and the solution won’t be so cheap for anyone over NW4.
    I’m sure getting ready for a lot of new hair fun in the coming years, and this sokker doesn’t care if it comes from pills, needles or even some hot dutch nurse. Hair is hair.
    We should have the losers here sign a form saying they won’t get any procedure from the companies they don’t believe in, ever. I for one welcome anyone who’s willing to make a contribution.
    Have some hairy fun!

  • victimofdht

    Newhairfun, that’s what I was thinking. Let whoever believe in whatever. Only time will tell who’s right and who’s wrong.
    I don’t know. I thought about Rep stock but at the moment there’s nothing promising about them so far.

  • rev

    I welcome any spirited debate… as long as it isn’t dependent on misinformation spread intentionally for whatever reason.

  • NewHairFun

    Debate for what? Like, which technique you think will work or not work? Who the h cares what idiots on this forum think? This is about science, not The View!
    Don’t believe in Follica? Fine, good for you. Don’t believe in Gho? Fine, feel free never to have his procedure done if he’s proven right some day. I don’t care.
    I just want hair, not win some argument with stupid internet forum impersonators.
    I learned about all the good stuff here. Let it be like that. You don’t make the f rules here. As long as people are polite (unlike me, but I’m a mf), and they contribute some info, what’s wrong? Did Gho kill your dog and burn your trailer or st?
    Hair fun is hair fun, nomatter where it comes from.
    From what I know, most of the procedures won’t work so well on bare scalps, but rather on thinning areas. So if some elaborate hair splitting s works there, fine. If it doesn’t work, then we’ll know eventually when he trains drs in Asia and they tell us it doesn’t work.
    I feel like some losers here are bashing this or that procedure because it’s just too f expensive for them. Got news for you dudes, get a job and work your a off, but don’t bash people who are trying to bring info here.
    This place is like a f video game fanboy forum or something. This is not Xbox vs Wii or any type of stuff like that. It’s not Follica vs Histogen vs ARI vs Gho or whatever else. All these things COULD have merit. We let the facts speak for themselves. And that will take proof.
    This f Gho taboo makes people on hair forums (and I’ve been lurking for a while) sound like morons. If any idiot here wants to censor any type on info on ANY potential procedure, just let him start his OWN f discussion forum where people are not allowed to talk about any type of procedure he will never be able to afford with his welfare check or mother’s allowance.
    Been lurking here for a while. Keep the info comin’ dudes. And prepare to have a LOT of New Hair Fun in the coming years!

  • NewHairFun

    Oh, and by the way, in the latest Follica patent, they seem to mention invivo hair splitting. So after promising some miracle demabrasion with special lithium cream, they are down to investigating Gho style hair splitting.

    So are we gonna start bashing them too? Like, they made some kind of scam?

    Point is, we don’t know what they are up to. They might be exploring many things. Maybe because st didn’t work so well, maybe because they like to try different things. Hint: get a f phd in medical research and try to cure a condition like baldness, and then come back and call people scammers because they failed, or because their solution isn’t as good as what they promised.

    Bottom line: I hate censorship, I hate guys who post on different forums with different names because they were f banned, and I hate random opinions based on no facts.

    Let’s keep this a place to share information, not opinions.

  • rev

    You know, you’re quite opinionated for a fella who prefers to keep the science to the point.

    oh and yes Gho did kill my dog, and he probably killed your dog as well while you were busy regaling us with your 30 page essay.

  • NewHairFun

    Yes, I have a strong opinion on getting the facts speak for themselves. Gotta problem with that? Will you ask me to leave this place? Got news for you my friend, I won’t. Get your own forum if you feel so bad about being banned from the loser place known as hairsite.

    I don’t come here to settle a f vendetta with some loser because I was banned from another discussion board. I come here to read info on upcoming hair treatments.

    And to have some merry hairy fun. Hopefully sooner than later.

  • NewHairFun

    Ryan,
    Are you the one who wrote the article? Maybe that’s why you’re allowed obsenities…
    I see you have an opinion as to which technique should work.

    Me, I only care about hair. Doesn’t matter where it comes from.

  • rev

    Alright wise guy. What do you propose?.. that we allow shills to badmouth Follica, Histogen, Aderans, and Replicel for no other reason, but to drum-up business for HT clinics such as Gho’s? That we allow the same mess that happened on hairsite to follow us here?

    Well.. your wish can easily be arranged. All that’s required is to lure spyder back from Gho’s ass, and ask a few Armani reps to visit us for good measure.

  • herzog

    Losing this thread to trolls is serious to me. I like this thread. If you want to keep it the way it was, please nobody respond to any of the Gho crap or bickering. Just answer with silence. They will tire themselves out with no replies. Otherwise, just post news updates as they come along.

  • julian

    hey guys… let´s talk here about nonsurgical treatments (histogen, follica, replicel and aderans)
    if anyone wants to know about gho, go to hairsite.com, that´s a lot information about him there ok?

  • spyder

    @Julian – no problem at all. But concerning “histogen, follica, replicel and aderans”, you should add “but just positive news updates about them!” – what finally exclude me from any serious discussion, because my granny always teached me that I should never lie. Damn …

    Seriously, I really wonder why no one seriously tries to REVIEW what I wrote in this thread so far about the companies you mention. Is really nobody interested to know what’s really working or not? Or let’s say COULD work or not. In my opinion, and to my best knowledge, the latter is actually no “guessing game” anymore. Again, at least not for me.

  • ladowho

    Is there anything to hang your hat on with BioRegenerative and their HSC product. The title says for Women but the http://www.pr.com/press-release/335996 article indicates clinical trials were done on men and women?

  • julian

    It´s too good to be true!! It seems to be a fraud, though!! charlatans again…

  • ladowho

    Yea…. After reviewing their website, it’s unfortunately snake oil.

  • happy1

    Good find Julian

    According to the site:
    The launch of Hair Stemulating Complex for Men is planned for the 3rd Quarter 2011.

    Wonder how much of this is Minoxidil repackaged.

    Looks expensive too.

    Think i’ll take the wait and see approach.

    Except for the vaginal cream product. I’ve been feeling really dry down there as of late. I simply must order that asap.

  • victimofdht

    That HSC is old news. It sounds like another scam. If it doesn’t make the news it’s a scam. That’s the rule I go by.

  • victimofdht

    Hey happy, how’s the Mico or whatever you’re using working for you ?

  • A

    Just thought id chime in with………Hairloss sucks and we need a solution.

    Thats all.

  • Happy1

    I’m unfamiliar with “Mico”
    I’ve been on Avodart for 3 years. I am taking it for my prostrate. I have had NO SIDE EFFECTS WHATSOEVER. That being said, I can see why the company has not sought to sell it as a hair-loss treatment. Avodart worked really well for a year or two. After that, results tapered off considerably.
    I’ve been using Minoxidil for 10 months. The frontal region of my head has thickened quite a bit.
    I’m actually growing out my buzz cut. I don’t expect Minoxidil to work indefinitely, but I’m enjoying the regrowth for the moment.

  • Shooter

    Hey Jacob, in this article (and many others that I’ve read that I don’t feel like finding the URLs for) Costarelis unequivocally mentions that more Wnt = more hair growth.

    http://archives.citypaper.net/articles/2009/01/22/george-cotsaleris-hair-follicle-research

  • Maxime

    Without pinning himself to a timeline, the good doctor’s estimate for Follica’s treatment looks very possible for launch within the next five years. “It’s impossible to know for sure, but within the next several years — two to three — there’ll be a trial where we’ll use a procedure with the compound to see if it works in humans,” says Cotsarelis. “There will be the usual regulatory stuff after that, so perhaps in four to five years we’ll have something we can offer people.”

    Written in 2009. In 2-3 years, trial on humans ? It’s 2011 and I think they’re in stage 2 right now ? I think 2014-2015 will be the year where we’ll have something (Aderans, Histogen, Replicel, Follica ..) there are too many industries right now working for something.

    It won’t be a PERMANENT CURE … but it’s going to put Propecia and Rogaine out of the market.

  • Shooter

    I’m really not as optimistic as Maxime, but I do have a somewhat silly proposition.

    One section of the patent says “While increasing Wnt expression increased the number of new hairs formed in the healed wound, Cotsarelis noted that ‘the hair follicle dermal papilla of these mice contain -25-38% more cells compared with normal. It is possible that the larger number of dermal papilla cells contributes to the greater number of hair follicles that form after wounding.'”

    What if we wound the skin, call Aderans to stuff some extra DP cells in there, and then throw some Wnt and Lithium on top for a few days (just in case)?

    C’mon… that HAS to work.

  • rev

    lol, you forgot the kitchen sink.

  • Shooter

    Ok, so the more I read, the less optimistic I become about Follica (most people here know I was probably never that optimistic to begin with). Here’s where I am with the whole thing…

    During earlier interviews, Daphne Zohar had given a few clues about the approach Follica was pursuing.

    “Small molecule drugs normally taken orally with no relation to hair growth.”

    “We are using existing compounds previously approved for systemic chronic use and reformulating them for topical acute use.”

    Lithium gluconate 8% is not normally taken orally, it is not approved for internal or chronic use, and Follica did not use a reformulated version during their trial.

    Case in point: Whatever Follica initially tested didn’t work. Now they are using Lithium gluconate 8%. It’s looking more and more like they are grasping at straws and hanging on to their fancy titles and VC funding…

    What does everyone else think about this? Is the apparent contradiction valid?

  • Maxime

    Follica said in the Xconomy interview that they were working on SEVERAL programs … the Lithium treatment is just one of them …

    Anyway, right now, I have a lot more faith in Replicel and Histogen.

    Histogen already delivered a lot of information on The Bald Truth forum … and they showed some kind of pre-clinical results if I remember correctly. And Replicel looks very professional and very well organized. They say they’ll share result in Q1-2012 so that’s positive.

  • Shooter

    Yes, they said Lithium was one of several programs. But it’s also the only program that they believed in enough to initiate clinical trials.

  • rev

    Personally, I have my fingers crossed for Histogen. Their results, thus far, seemed encouraging, they averted their lawsuit with skinmedica, they’ve proven savvy with their trial locations, their formula is scalable (ie, shampoos), and their price points seem within range of the regular Joe.

    Again, I have my fingers crossed.

  • Shooter

    I see what you’re saying, and I like Histogen too, but I’m just having a hard time understanding how their technology works now that it has apparently been proven that Wnt signalling does not contribute to follicular neogenesis.

    I mean, that finding really throws a wrench in everything.

  • julian

    speculations, that´s all we´ve got now and always… I hope this will have and end soon, good or bad cause it´s been annoying…

  • rev

    I’m not convinced wnt serves no value with regards to hair growth cycles.

    I believe wnt signaling’s elaborated roughly 2/3rds into the seminar:
    http://www.ascb.org/ibioseminars/includes/player.cfm?name=fuchs&num=2

  • hairpaper

    Extracting a paragraph out of a patent and using that as the basis for a solid argument is a bit over the top. Besides, whether wnt signaling has something to do with one particular aspect of the hair growth cycle doesn’t really matter. If the results that Histogen claims to have achieved are real, then that empirical data is sufficient to carry on the work.

    The scientists at Histogen are growing fibroblasts in hypoxic (low oxygen) conditions and harvesting conditioned media, which could have one or two or 10 different secreted proteins responsible for initiating hair growth.

  • Ryan

    Shooter, it’s the only clinical trials we know of, and that took a long time to find. I wouldn’t read to much into the small pieces of information we have, they could be doing trials on other compounds somewhere else for all we know.

  • Maxime

    You people seems to think you can find EVERYTHING on the internet … having only found the lithium treatment doesn’t mean they’re not working on anything else.

  • Baldy

    I haven’t been able to find any updates on Aderans research, since they started phase 2? It seems like they hardly post anything. Does anyone have any updates?

    Also, what does everyone think about astressin-b? I’m most excited about this. In August their first trials are to conclude. So far everything looks great from what they say. Would they then start trials on humans? If it works would be something we could see in the near future? Would we have to wait for FDA approval for years or could we get astressin-b someplace else?

  • spyder

    @Baldy – the user “froggy” (a “French man”) tried his best once more, to inform us concerning “Aderans/Unihair” updates on 7/3/11 8:23 am:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j79WqncOAT4

    Concerning “astressin-b“:

    “astressin-b admin” June 22, 2011 at 3:32 pm –
    Maxime, thank you for your comment, but obviously I cannot agree with you.
    The fact that our subject’s hair phases are not an exact replication of the Human’s hair growth cycle has absolutely nothing to do with the potential efficiency of the compound we are researching as a future treatment.
    Secondly, and as previously stated, contrary to the studies that have already been conducted our subjects have not been tampered with, and have not been subjected to any kind of external factor that could have induced stress. Furthermore some of these mice have been born with Alopecia, which might provide an indication that the compound is also effective in treating genetic conditions that lead to hairloss.
    Finally, without any disrespect, your line of thought will not lead to anything positive or productive, if you strongly believe this condition is incurable, this blog isn’t for you.

    Concerning “Histogen“ (I know you didn’t ask about them):
    The user “rev” clearly demonstrated with the video with the RESEPECTED researcher lady Dr. Elaine Fuchs (born May 5, 1950), …
    http://www.ascb.org/ibioseminars/includes/player.cfm?name=fuchs&num=2
    … that ANY Wnt agonists “would not be able to reverse androgen induced hair loss, nor can any Wnt ligands promote hair follicle neogenesis in adult skin”. It’s simply a scientifically proven fact and Dr. Elaine Fuchs explained that (indirect), besides related findings by other researchers in this field.

  • hairpaper

    I’m not sure if you’re referring to a clinical trial involving astressin-b or mixing your first and second topics.

    Astressin-b reverses hair loss in a mouse model of stress, not general androgenic alopecia. Maybe at some point astressin-b will be tested in models of androgenic alopecia. There’s no evidence astressin-b induces hair growth de novo, it blocks a signal in stressed individuals(mice) to allow them to grow back hair. Many years away, if ever.

  • Ryan

    hairpaper, I think Baldy is referring to this

    http://www.hairloss-research.com/astressin-b-trial-status/

    Some people on hairsite are going to try it as a home experiment.

  • hairpaper

    Thanks Ryan,
    I checked out the page and it’s a little odd, very odd actually. These are homeopathy researchers (are they researchers? where is their lab?) that didn’t complete the original work on astressin-b but are doing their own semi-random tests on mice of some odd source? I don’t make these comments to feel good about trashing anyone, but I am in research and this website is highly dubious. A lot of what they’re stating doesn’t add up.

    The Tache lab at UCLA published the original results on astressin-b and hair loss. I’m sure they’d be open to general inquiries (within reason) but they’ve already made it clear that the effects they’ve seen have not been with mice suffering from androgenic alopecia.

    http://faculty.neuroscience.ucla.edu/institution/personnel?personnel_id=45836

  • hairpaper

    PS I should make it clear that I am all for taking leaps in research. An experiment, even at home, would be fairly straight forward. It would be a peptide that could be synthesized. Though I didn’t look at the paper in detail regarding any 2ndary modifications.

    The mice were given 5 micrograms a day… to give an eighty kilo person a similar dosage would be roughly 16mg a day x 5 days treatment. For that amount, the most basic (desalted) peptide synthesis would be $1000+

  • Ryan

    hairpaper, there’s a couple of threads about it on hairsite if you’re interested, the more people involved who know what they’re doing can only be helpful to those willing to try an experiment at home. It’s worth trying anyway.

  • hairpaper

    Ryan, thanks. I am not a member of the hairsite forum but may check it out. If someone had a question I don’t mind giving answering a shot. As long as individuals don’t point at me if something goes wrong! The best I can give is friendly advice on one would hypothetically go about testing a reagent.

  • A

    If you dont want fingers pointed at you. Stay away from hairsite.

  • hairpaper

    I take it that hairsite can be an unfriendly environment? No problem, I can barely keep up with one forum on the topic anyway.

  • Adeus

    i´m so pessimist this days…
    i´m starting to think that in 10-20-or 30 years will and we´ll have nothing
    sorry to share so sad thing

  • DBS

    The biggest problem I see on this forum is that some have become so accepting of bad news, they see bad news no matter where they look. How depressing.

    Follica is a perfect example. Despite the fact they have conducted phase I and II trials under the radar, everyone assumes they have or will soon fail because they are tight lipped. Based on what evidence?

    In fact, it is Cotsarelis and Follica that have made great adavances without feeling the need to hype their findings every few days. Those who constantly hype blah results are the ones who are floundering.

    At this point, no one expects a miracle treatment from Follica, but the big names on their payroll wouldn’t be a part of Follica if they were hocking snake oil.

    What some of you are trying to surmise from small patent snippets here and there isn’t even as trustworthy as reading tea leaves.

  • Mr. Z

    Well said, DBS!

    A couple months ago no one had any idea they had even begun to test in humans. Now, we know that, not only have the begun, but they’ve completed their initial end points of a phase II study. That is incredible and puts them way ahead of expectations.

    It would be really nice to hear about their results, but, they don’t appear to be inclined to do so. So, we just have to tough out the wait until they release some data. Hopefully, hear about them this year sometime.

    Anybod know what happened to the test cases that histogen was running back at the beginning of the year and were supposed to release the data after 3 months? I know Dr. Ziering was talking about the earth quake interfering, but, i don’t know what to make of that.

  • Ryan

    Good point about Histogen Mr. Z, I’d completely forgot about that.

  • Baldy

    Is this anything worth talking about it, I read it today.

    http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1140269/1/.html

    Doctors in Singapore are considering a new form of treatment that is based on embryonic stem cells.

    A solution is injected directly into the scalp to stimulate hair growth.

    According to Dr Eileen Tan from Eileen Tan Skin, Laser and Hair Transplant Clinic, the benefit of such treatment is that there is no need to ingest or apply any medicine every day.

    Industry players are working with the National Skin Centre to conduct tests. If the results are favourable, they may import this technology.

  • Mr. Z

    In the baldtruthtalk forums, the Histogen Update: Spencer Kobren speaks to Dr. Craig Ziering thread. Dr. Ziering is quoted on page 7, post #70

    “Histogen is performing exploratory case studies in Asia where patients are receiving 50+ injections at base line to assess hair growth over time. The Company hopes to have initial results from the first case studies in the next four weeks and plans on sharing those with the hair transplant community.

    Doc Z ”

    That was on Feburary 12, 2011. What happened? That they didn’t release anything and it’s now 5 months later, is not confidence inspiring at all.

  • TooBad

    Honestly, we’ll never have any cure for baldness.

    Bye.

  • Virgo

    i agree with Mr. Z, that is in fact disconcerting…

    hopefully they have good reason that we are not aware of as to why they did not update us.

  • hairpaper

    Mr. Z – FYI for a doctor or scientist affiliated with a company to announce trial results and give play by play on the hairsite forum is a bit unusual.

    Word of last post by Ziering that gave a one month time line could have come full circle to Histogen’s management. There are ups and downs in research nearly 100% of the time, which is precisely why, again, you don’t give play by plays in these type of situations.

    Virgo, same reasoning – Ziering isn’t the CEO of Histogen and technically, really shouldn’t have been posting like that unless he had the blessing of the CEO (who in turn would be responsible to the board of directors). When you write “they did not update us” I get your frustration, but word may have gotten back to the company’s leadership. They don’t owe a forum anything and “they” in this case was/is a member of their board of directors. I can tell you that kind of thing would not be tolerated at the companies I’ve been involved with.

  • Mr. Z

    Yeah, i highly doubt that an MD who runs his own business wouldn’t have a basic understanding of business confidentiality. And furthermore, Ziering most definitely did not go off on his own and come up with the idea of the “exploratory studies”, their 4 week duration, or the idea to share the results with the hair transplant community. As you mentioned, the board makes those kinds of decisions. The doctor was simply passing along information which he was informed of. Ziering would have to be a complete fool to go on to a discussion board and make promises on behalf of Histogen without their approval. I’m not willing to accept that he’s that ignorant. Sorry.

    Someone questioned him about where the results were and he gave reason that the earthquake interefered with things. Which sounds like a bunch of fluff to me, but, could potentially be true. The other reason is that their results didn’t produce what they were expecting …which could be for a multitude of reasons and maybe they needed time to trouble shoot. Who the hell knows.

  • hairpaper

    Well, that’s the problem. Ziering is a board member and those are usually the last to know. As often happens in my and other board meetings, scientists give investors the best, sugar coated versions of anything going on. This is not speculation, this is my career and firsthand experience. Don’t get me wrong the ‘polyanna’ approach is tried and proven. It’s a novel tech, struggling, keep the investors happy and sweat out the results in lab. But I guarantee you any typical board meeting, say August 1st we (others, everyone who has ever been in a company) will say they are going to accomplish A, B, C and D by the next board meeting in eight weeks. Come Oct 1st, guess what? You almost never attain all the goals you set out, you may have switched methods and even are 2nd guessing ‘solid’ results of the past. But you remain positive – you WANT the board to keep from pulling out as investors. You say “well, we learned what not to do.” or “we were doing great up until now, but we found a better way.” So you may set new sets of goals A1 B1, C1, D1 to carry on your new hot results. It’s standard operating – crazy huh? But that’s why so many companies never make it past initial proof-of-concept.

    While I don’t think Ziering acted maliciously, my best guess is he’s a newbie as far as investing in a new tech. If he was on the board of any other company, you’d see it in his bio on Histogen.com. Maybe he got carried away but if any board member came to one of our meetings requesting to post on an online forum – let’s just say they’d lose some credibility among the other members.
    I’m not bulls***ing you, it’s quite frankly a very atypical thing to do. There’s not one place on the Histogen site that states a clinical trial announcement will be made by April 2011. Dr. Z. showed himself to be a bit naive but likely won’t make the same mistake twice.

  • Ryan

    I don’t believe he’s a newbie hairpaper, here’s a bit of information about him

    http://www.iahrs.org/hair-transplant/california/craig-ziering/

  • LoL

    He looks a lil bit autistic to me.

  • hairpaper

    Hey Ryan,
    No, not a newbie in terms of general career as a hair transplant doctor but not really a business guy. He’s sat on “advisory panels” for companies but that doesn’t always mean a lot. When you’re promoting the fact you’re an editor of New Beauty Magazine… let’s just say he’s not in the league of even non-tenure track faculty at places like Harvard, UCSF and so on. The last prof. I wrote a small business grant with had a resume with a million awards and honors.

    I want to be fair here – Dr. Z. is accomplished, no question. But posting on a hair forum is, to say the least, poor judgment. Though many people may hate this example, Cotsarelis’ hush hush behavior is much more typical of scientists on advisory panels. The general rule is “don’t tell anyone, including you wife” but who knows Dr. Zs motives? He may just be passionate and was eager to spread some good news. I responded to posts on this topic really to say A) good news could be on the way, don’t rule it out and B) the method of a board of directors member getting mixed up in a forum (some of the contributors’ posts I read at hairsite were REALLY over the top)
    is very much outside the bounds of typical company behavior.

    I’m hoping Histogen is willing to share a little bit of their progress, but certainly not before results are confirmed and reconfirmed.

  • KKwilliams

    I am unsure where all the recent doom and gloom has come from. Spyder showed up saying that wnt signalling has now been proven to have no effect on hair growth and his evidence was 1 document.

    until follica and histogen come out and say their current attempts have failed or we get no positive updates over the next year or 2 I am not going to give in to all the cry baby hysteria.

    histogens pre clinical results were beyond encouraging and nothing since then has indicated they are having difficulties.

  • Maxime

    China Medical Biotech Forum
    November 7-9, 2011
    Beijing, China
    Dr. Gail K. Naughton to present “Human Embryonic-like Proteins Stimulate New Hair Growth in Humans while Inducing Apoptosis in Cancer”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t have anything new until this date.

  • rev

    Maxime. China’s a massive market without fda oversight. It would be a good place to divulge some results… possible drum up some capital.

    KKwilliams. Spyder/ Iron_man has a way of skewing data. Hairsite’s become the epitome of doom and gloom thanks, in part, to his shenanigans. I wouldn’t put much stock in his comments; the science behind wnt signaling’s still sound.

  • KKwilliams

    @rev

    None of us know whether spyder is just here to cause problems or post misrepresented/skewed data to discourage people here and scare them into going to gho or something like that. On the other hand maybe he is right. Either way Im not going to freak out.

    until histogen states that their pre clinical data was a fluke and they are not making progress I am still hopeful they can deliver us a new treatment in the next 4-5 years.

  • spyder

    rev, you shouldn’t talk such a complete BS. It already starts with “spyder/IronMan says …”.

    I myself DID NOT say “Wnt’s don’t work!”. I just reported about Follica’s gathered Wnt findings and Wnt CONCLUSIONS – and not mine. And I also provided (as always) the SOURCE. So don’t act like a 5 year old boy who lost his beloved lollipop.

    Furthermore, hairpaper is absolutely right concerning the discussed Histogen issue.

  • tk

    Don’t we have some data from Histogen already? Didn’t it give an increase of 80% density in some patients? Why the fuss all of a sudden? Just because DrZ didn’t divulge any data? Honestly, I feel that hairpaper is right when he says that this was dubious behaviour at best.

    No news doesn’t mean bad results. If there were no results, why would Dr Gail K. Naughton quit her job at her University for Histogen?

    Histogen is the most promising non-surgical treatment out there. We have no idea about Replicel, as it is about a decade away (you may want to correct me on this), and Follica is just being silent.

  • Baldy

    Hey guys,

    I just read this today about Aderans, I think it’s current from Paris 2011 conference. Please let me know what you think. At the end they say Phase 1 was success showed safe biologically. Phase 2 is going on now, up to 300 subjects, proving to be successful. Once finished, next step is to check with regulatory agency and ask for approval for use. Could this happen?

  • Baldy
  • KKwilliams

    aderans is only seeing 13 new hairs per cm2. All that video made me do is think about how much better histogens results seem to be.

    13 more hairs is not going to provide any cosmetic improvement

  • Shooter

    I’ve seen the original video, and it is really unclear whether or not Dr. Washenik says 13 or 30 hairs per square centimeter.

    We’ll just have to wait till they release official data.

  • Virgo

    sounded like 13 to me (though your right it was hard to hear because of the way the girl/narrator pronounced it in a seemingly hesitant manner)… sorry, 30 would not have been that bad of a deal. again i could be wrong but i am pretty sure that’s what i heard.

  • tk

    I felt like it was 30 hairs, it’s the threshold for minoxidil results. This video is rather old (more than a month), I haven’t seen it in a while.
    The thing that you may be forgetting is that this is very different from minoxidil. It,s not like every time you use minoxidil, you get a 10% density increase or something. While we don’t know at this point, these procedures (such as ARI and Histogen) might have an additive effect.

    The biggest problem is, what if you already bald? I mean, if it increases density by a percentage, then if you start with nothing, you will also end of with nothing, right? Follica might work though. Otherwise these procedures might have to be combined with surgical procedures.

  • Shooter

    http://www.ishrs.org/articles/female-gold-standard.htm

    This study was Minox 5% on women. They experienced a mean 25 hair per square centimeter increase.

    Men respond better to Minox, so it has to be 30…

  • Shooter

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/470297_2

    This shows a male study. Looks like the mean hair count is around 30-35.

  • Caddillac

    Ive been catching up on the thread and the posts about wnt now not being a factor in hair regeneration put me in a nosedive. Is this not what all are big 3 hopes are based off of[follica histogen aderans]

    histogen had me most excited but if all these companies jumped the gun on proclaiming wnt signalling as the golden ticket to a future treatment how far are we set back? Please tell me histogen is not effected by this because they showed so much promise to have a very good ‘cure’ type treatment within the next 5 years.

  • victimofdht

    June 25,2321- A team of researchers at the university of Fuckston have ACCIDENTALLY discovered a chemical that can regrow hair in MICE. The team was conducting an experiment on mice to see if they could produce mice with green eyes when they noticed that mice injected with that chemical regrew thick hair…
    The team however is optimistic about the ability of the same chemical to regrow hair in humans and they believe a product made of this chemical could be available in the next 5-10 years.
    On a different note, Jesus continues his mission -after his return- and it is now believed life will end on this planet within the next 5 years.

  • Iwantsomehair

    Wait, victimofdht when did researchers at fuckson university discover this? This could be potentially huge news!!!!!

  • ZZ

    A couple of points to consider on the WNT issue as I believe DBS above correctly cautioned not to read too much into a “small patent snippet”: The snippet referred to in paragraph 0013 was quoted from research published in the 2007 Journal Nature….the same research article that launched all of the WNT related fanfare that was/is the foundation of Follica. The all encompassing negative meaning that some here have deduced from this snippet is therefore not likley a reasonable interpretation of this language. This research would otherwise be contradicting itself. The last quote I am aware of (2009)from Cotsarelis in http://archives.citypaper.net/articles/2009/01/22/george-cotsaleris-hair-follicle-research, almost 2 years after the Nature “snippet”, confirms that:

    “What previous researchers didn’t find (Penn scientist Albert M. Kligman studied in this field in the 1950s), and what Cotsarelis pursued in the 2000s, was Wnt — a gene trigger, an important protein in hair development in utero that coaxes stem cells into growing hair. Block Wnts during development and you don’t grow follicles. Increase it, and hair grows wild. “If you get extra Wnts during that development you get extra follicles — wounding pushes skin into an embryonic state,” explains Cotsarelis. “‘Should I make a hair follicle or should I make myself into an epidermis?’ is what cells say during wound healing. Our goal is to bring skin to that embryonic state. If they get Wnt, they’ll make hair follicles.”

    The science underlying all of the research we are following is extremely complex and does often seem contradictory but I believe the more likley interpretation of this “snippet” and its inclusion in the patent application has to do with “TIMING”. If you introduce WNTs (and other molecules)at a certain time in the hair cycle (i.e during wounding) you may get one result and if you introduce them at a different time, you may get another or no result. If you read the entire patent application, when you get to paragraph 0064, you will see this:

    [0064] “Thus, the invention is based in part on the recognition that the timing of the administration of lithium is important for it to function as an effective modulator of hair growth in human subjects. For example, lithium treatment results, indirectly, in increasing Wnt signaling, but agents that increase Wnt signaling have had conflicting effects on follicle development. When continuously present, they stimulate follicle morphogenesis but also induce hair follicle tumors (Gat et ai, 1998, Cell 95: 605-614), leading to decreased hair growth (Millar et ai , 1999, Dev. Biol. 207: 133-149). In the case of lithium, it has been shown to arrest mitosis (Wolniak, 1987, Eur. J. Cell Biol. 44: 286-293; and Wang, 2008, World J. Gastroenterol. 14:3982-3989), cause pathological hair loss when systematically administered (see, e.g. , Mercke et al , 2000, Ann. Clin. Psych. 12:35-42), or, at best, stimulate the generation of only rudiments of hair follicles (Fathke et ai , 2006, BMC Cell Biol. 7:4). These apparently discrepant roles of lithium as a stimulator of Wnt signaling and a negative regulator of the cell cycle are resolved in the present invention.”

  • Mr. Z

    Nice research ZZ. The armchair researchers who are trying to blow this out are in way over their head’s. It’s like watching a monkey try to solve a calculus problem. All this WNT bashing comes from a couple of posters over at Hairsite, which has become a ridiculous forum that offers very little in the way of usable informtion anymore. Follica put up big money to conduct not one but two clinical trials with their lithium treatment/wounding protocol…they obviously believe there is something to WNT signaling and hair growth. I’ll put my trust in them, rather than some hacks from an internet forum.

  • Shooter

    Seriously, there is no way that everyone at Follica is so catastrophically stupid that they took the time to write into their patent a paragraph that explains how the idea they were patenting had no hope of working.

    That wouldn’t get 16 million venture dollars. It just wouldn’t.

  • tk

    Histogen already showed pictures of regrowth. So their method obviously works to some extent, in a fair number of patients. So no way wnt doesn’t work. I fail to understand why this is an issue at all.

    It’s all in the timing, and the secret sauce.

    Anybody here believes in Dr Hitzig? His results are looking a bit more convincing these days. Still seems a bit meh to me though.

  • spyder

    **I’ll put my trust in them, rather than some hacks from an internet forum.**

    Totally agree, Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Z!

    Anyway, does it mean you trust Follica’s [0014/0015] conclusions too?

    “[0014] These findings suggest that Wnt agonists would not be able to reverse androgen induced hair loss, since MPHL alopecia DP cells inhibit potent Wnt agonists (Kitagawa et al, 2009, J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 94: 1288-1294).

    [0015] Thus, while Wnt signaling has generated interest, its role in hair follicle stem cell and follicle development and hair growth is, at best, unclear.”

    And remember Mr. Z, these claims (Follica’s claims) are pretty NEW!

  • Z79

    I really dont like where this forum is going. This was the last place I felt worthy of posting interesting finds but I dont want to be a part of these nonsense “discussions” so any new information coming my way wont be shared here.
    Fingers crossed for new treatments emerging soon.
    RIP xconomy forum. Over and out.

  • rev

    Trying to treat intangible (unclear) findings as concrete proof of failure seems rather foolish, but I wouldn’t expect anything less from you spyder/ Iron_man.

    The science behind many treatments is unclear, but it doesn’t mean they don’t work. It’s unlikely Histogen knows every single detail with regards to wnt signaling in their treatment, but the fact remains that THEY GREW HAIR!!

  • Artista

    Z79, If you think this thread isn’t being watched over by admins, your wrong. Admins here do clearly practice tolerance but there is a definite breaking point. I already know of a couple of names you wont see here anymore. Lets just keep this thread above board and respectful guys. Name calling and foul language is not appreciated by anyone that is mature.

  • Ryan

    spyder, And remember Mr. Z, these claims (Follica’s claims) are pretty NEW!

    No they’re not, they knew in 2006 that wnt alone would not reverse hairloss, they said when you increase wnt at a certain point it increases the number of follicles. They didn’t say it would create new follicles or reverse hairloss they said it would increase the number. Their latest findings only support their earlier work.

  • spyder

    Ryan, what’s really so unclear?
    “[0014] These findings suggest that Wnt agonists would not be able to reverse androgen induced hair loss, since MPHL alopecia DP cells inhibit potent Wnt agonists (Kitagawa et al, 2009, J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 94: 1288-1294).

    **…since MPHL alopecia DP cells INHIBIT potent Wnt agonists…** – and Dr. Kitagawa et al studied this issue very well and published their serious findings in 2009. And that’s THE reason why it’s NO ISSUE for the Follica guys anymore!!

  • Shooter

    Z79, I hear ya buddy. It’s amazing what one troll can do to a forum.

    Frankly, I’m surprised this place lasted as long as it did…

  • tk

    @spyder,
    This is what Follica is saying. Histogen already has some nice results, so it looks like they can make it work. But I agree this isn’t looking too good for Follica. But I haven’t read the whole paper, so I really can’t comment and would rather not jump on any conclusion.

    It’s be great if there was a real moderated discussion group where we could share info without petty battles and name calling, and where we could rationally discuss new treatments. This has become hairsite no2.
    Anybody wants to start a group?

  • tk

    Some news from Histogen, from Dr Gail herself! Looks like we’re looking at only two years for HSC to be released in Asia. This is amazing news!

    http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=20786&postcount=1

    So with repeat HSC treatments, and some taboo treatment that we shall not name, it looks like there will be finally be something to do to restore hair soon. I am more than excited!

    Don’t listen to the naysayers on both sides. And don’t expect these treatments to come in cheap, mostly if you need repeat treatments.

    Here’s to our hairy futures!

  • herzog

    Spyder – You are not welcome here. Please go away.

  • herzog

    tk – That’s nice but the post is from over 6 months ago. Dr. Z has recently indicated another couple months delay already. Still, the timeline mentioned here is the rough one that we are all going by on a best case scenario.

  • tk

    herzog,
    You’re right, I looked at the date of one of the replies which was June.
    But I don’t believe there is any reason to believe that there is anything changed about the schedule. I don’t think Dr Z’s lack of follow-through is an indication for anything.
    Anyway, I’m still very hopeful about HSC. I feel like writing to Gail myself.

  • herzog

    I am hopeful as well. HSC looks great. That said, I wasn’t basing the delay on Dr. Z’s lack of follow through. About a months ago Histogen announced a postponement of the clinical trials by a few months. Can’t remember the details.

  • A

    Yes i gotta agree take your shit back to harisite spyder. No one likes u

  • lurker

    Ok. Here’s the deal. I come here for info. In order to continue to obtain info here… just ignore spyder. He’s obviously IronMan or some other loser from Hairsite. I think it’s IronMan because of the citations… by the way who uses citations on a discussion forum? I know… someone who really has no education.

    So, from here on out… NO MORE DISCUSSION WITH THIS DUDE. Let him post and DO NOT RESPOND.

    We can continue with our own discussions. Just ignore him. If you don’t, you will get scolded.

  • spyder

    **who uses citations on a discussion forum?**

    Everbody who uses the “quote” feature, if available. But where is for you the difference between “citations” and “quotes”? Nicely example:

    “… to date there has been no evidence that extracellular Wnt ligands can promote actual hair follicle neogenesis in adult skin”

    Is that a citation or a quote? And who said it? And now look how many users in this thread used any citations/quotes. You don’t like them either? Or do you just like the ones who quote positive things conform with any of your wet dreams?

  • rev

    Tell me Iron_man/Spyder, do you put any thought into your derogatory gibberish, or does it just come naturally to you after years of practice on hairsite?

  • Metsie

    Spyder is the david koresh of hair loss. Taking quotes and manipulating them for his own agenda. Thats it I’m converted I’m getting hair plugs!

  • rev

    I, as well, would like to get hair plugs. Tell me more about this special, limited time offer.

  • Metsie

    you did it spyder. You’ve converted the masses. Where do we get our corn rows? I hope we get a free T-shirt out of the deal.

  • Koiak

    there are two guys destroying hairsite, steve.dee and iron.man
    and now they are trying to do the same here
    GET OUT

  • Mr. Z

    It’s not only hairsite they’re destroying. They’ve infected many other forums and are getting banned everywhere. They post incessantly. Hopefully the moderator here will keep on top of it before this discussion site gets destroyed, as well.

  • spyder

    wow, it seems you guys visit hairsite very often. The question is – why?

    @rev, yes, it’s true. It just came naturally after years of practice on hairsite and I learned very fast from the guys there – especially from …




































































    rev.

  • koiak

    spyder: because it used to be a good forum…
    please get a life and get out here

  • tk

    Guys,
    I just took the time to write to Dr Gail Naughton, the CEO of Histogen. Partly to thank her, but also to ask her two simple questions. Fisrt, I asked her if it will be possible to get additional treatments every year to increase the density. Second, I asked if the procedure will work on already bald areas, or if it was just meant to increase the density of already hairy areas.

    Perhaps most people here have minor hairloss, so this won’t be an issue for you, but the problem with these new treatments is that they seem to work on areas with thinning hair. Replicel just might be different, but it’s hard to tell.

    Anyway, I will let you all know if I ever get a reply from our dear savior.

  • tk

    Just found this thread on HLT:

    http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51330&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=450

    So 2014 it is. And it will be 1000$ per injection. Hopefully one injection grows more than one hair. ;) And supposedly it won’t be permanent, so you’ll have to go back every couple of years or so.

    So it won’t be cheap, mostly for people with more serious hairloss. I will want injections all over my head, since it is now thinning all over.

    Well, as long as it works, I don’t care about cost. Money you can always get somewhere. Hair is a different story.

  • victimofdht

    Well tk, thanks for the effort. I hope she won’t disappoint you and not reply. I really don’t expect them to reply but I hope I’m wrong.

  • victimofdht

    Man, when is this seesaw of good news bad news going to end ? So, is this 2014 final or is someone going to say that’s old and it’s been changed ?
    $1,000 for a injection ? That could be either good or bad. Any info on how much of an area and how much density one injection can give, and also how often those injections need to be taken ? If each treatment last a year or 2 at least that will buy us time until we have more options or at least those treatments become more available which might also make them more affordable.

  • spyder

    Wow, a 12 posts poster on hairlosstalk posts complete BS out his ass and the whole community get mad. “$1000 for a single injection” – very cheap for 1 SINGLE injection.

  • helloehello

    test

  • rev

    I’ve had enough of this parasitic troll. I just reported him to the editors and webmaster. I suggest everyone follow suit:

    http://www.xconomy.com/contact-us/

  • spyder

    rev, don’t be childish. The bastard who simply used my nickname and posted on 7/17/11 10:54 am – that WASN’T ME! And xconomy knows that.

  • AA

    Spyder, you’re full of it. Get your sorry as* out of here.

  • AA

    You’re ruining the spirit of this board. Such bickering. tisk tisk

  • judoh

    the truth is:
    when we don´t have any news we spend our time arguing here with each other…
    i´ll come back when something new comes

  • rev

    what is the spirit of this board?
    Someone shared a video about a new hair dublication technique, another starts to acting like a jerk and claims this is not allowed because this is “his” board and another one is thinking that just discussions about injectable cures or drugs is allowed. All of a sudden others can’t find something to discuss either way, become frustrated, and simply attack the guy who shared a video. Oh well, seems hair loss is really more than just hair loss.
    Regards,
    notrev

  • spyder

    @judoh, I think your idea is the best idea in this thread at all.

  • rev

    I didn’t post the above comment, and there’s only one jerk-off I know with a track record stealing aliases — Iron_man/spyder/___.

  • rev

    I didn’t post the above comment either.

    Gentlemen, please contact the following people with regards to Iron_man/spyder:

    editors@xconomy.com
    webmaster@xconomy.com

  • lurker

    I think the question about how much coverage from one injection is a very good one? Anyone have any info on that?

  • ThatGuy

    Hey Adernas making progress it appears

    Video from presentation

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2oQYjppOPJM

  • tk

    I remember reading from Dr Z that with HSC, they could choose exactly where the hairs would grow. That is inconsistent with the idea that you would only need an injection for a large area.
    This is quite a mystery, and they only thing we can do is wait or answers. I doubt they will come this year.

  • victimofdht

    ThatGuy, that was good to watch. It’s exciting stuff but I don’t think it’s going to be available any time soon. I hate to say it but it does look like something that’s at least 7 years away, that’s if everything goes as planned.

    tk, there’s no doubt one injection won’t be any where near enough to cover a typical bald head. I just hope it won’t be like 10 injections or more at $1000…every year or so.

  • tk

    @victim,
    Well, f you’re thinning on the sides and back, not just the top, that easily triples the number of injections needed. So I am expecting something quite expensive for people who have more than a thinning top.

    Mind you, we have no idea if this will work on already bald areas. For this we might need a surgical approach. Well, we don’t know for now, but it isn’t looking good.

    We should think of HSC more as booster shots for our hair. This is probably the best thing ever for younger folks with minor loss. But advanced stages, well, it’s better than nothing I guess.

  • colt

    Bringing the discussion back to Follica, I know that they are looking into hair growth as well as inhibiting hair growth as well. There seems to be folks here who are much more well versed in the underlying science of their approach, so I just wanted to ask if someone could elaborate on how their approach could lead to sustained inbhibition of hair growth for people with hirsutism, for example. I ask this because a family member of mine is quite self-conscious about her exceess body hair, and it brought home the fact that Follica’s approach has potential to help people on the opposite end of the hair spectrum, so to speak. Thanks

  • odd

    Here is a trial going on in China for a treatment gel. Results due out April 2012:

    http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01347957?term=hair+AND+cell&rank=12

    If you have chemistry skills you can try to follow the recipe they listed and try it out yourself.

    “Nitric Oxide (NO) Gel is created by premixing of contents from 2 separate gel bottles. The first bottle, NO gel, is a solution of sodium nitrite (14.6mM) in distilled water with hydroxyethylcellulose (molecular weight 50,000-1,250,000) added for gel formation. The second bottle, Releasing-stimulator gel, is a solution of maleic acid (14.6mM) and ascorbic acid (14.6mM) in distilled water with hydroxyethylcellulose added for gel formation.”

  • odd

    Here is the description of the trial:

    “Preclinical studies showed the Nitric Oxide (NO) gel significantly promoted hair follicle formation and growth in both rat and mouse models. The NO gel induced major physiological, developmental, and structural changes in the skin of mammals to increase the number of hair follicles, follicle stem cell development and regeneration as well as hair shaft elongation, and accelerated hair growth rate. Based on our animal model findings, the investigators hypothesize that the nitric oxide releasing gel could be used as a medical treatment for hair growth in humans. The objective of this trial is to evaluate the safety and efficacy of this NO gel (XN-001), in comparison with a placebo gel in subjects in a 24-week treatment schedule.”

  • tk

    Thanks, odd. Can’t we get this thing custom made by a chemist? It should actually be pretty simple.

    If this helps a bit, it could be a good thing to use before HSC is released. I could need a hair boost just about now.

  • huh?

    hey guys, what happened to the thread?

  • Artista

    All is well ‘huh?’ We are all in that ‘wait and see mood’ at this point. Im sure you are too. No worries,,i believe we will have something to start with

  • tk

    There’s really nothing to discuss regarding hair regeneration advancement beside some taboo surgical procedure these days. I’ve got tons of RSS feeds setup, and don’t see anything interesting. I still haven’t received any reply from Histogen as well.

    Life sucks now, but at least we can all know that regrowing hair is no longer science fiction. It’s now just a matter of time (and money).

  • Jairao

    it´s good.. when people have nothing to say here, they don´t say nothing
    if anyone one is looking for “spetacular” news go to hairsite, that one day used to be a good place

  • j

    when can we have hair??

  • Happy1

    After you’ve eaten your peas.

  • Wiser

    “when can we have hair??”

    Wrong question.

  • tk

    If you only have thinning hair, maybe 3 years, when HSC is released. That is pretty soon if you ask me. We just don’t know how much the treatment will cost though, and it is looking more and more likely that you will need repeat injections every year or so.

    For bald areas where HSC may not work (too early to tell), then there are some surgical procedures that are getting better and better that can help tremendously, without depleting the donor area.

    So the combination of these two procedures alone mean that for most people with dedication, time, and money, there are only three years left top this nightmare. I’ve been dealing with this since my teens, so for me it’s like a miracle.

    So hang in there, and don’t read too much into the bickering you see on the web. There are true solutions coming our way.

  • ladowho

    I have a google alert set for ‘Baldness Cure stem cell’ and received this http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/health/new-hair-loss-treatment-uses-your-own-blood-07252011 alert.

    There was no indication from the article if this procedure would benefit male pattern baldness. It seems to be helping the lady that lost her hair because of lupus.
    Thought i would check here because of all the expertise on this board.
    Even if this is not a viable solution, at least it gives hope.

  • hairpaper

    ladowho

    I think the article is referring to plasma rich replacement therapy

    http://www.orthohealing.com/plateletrichplasmatherapy-prp/

    Here’s one clinic in Florida that had a small amount of attention regarding this approach.

    http://drmarkou.com/Platelet%20Rich%20Plasma%20Injections.asp

    It hasn’t produced any amazing results. It’s worth considering how low tech, costly and labor unintensive (yes, unintensive) the therapy is vs the results. Personally, I can see taking advantage of this therapy and anything else I could if I had major knee surgery and was eager to get even a slight increase in healing, and possibly mobility (e.g., 2%).

  • julian

    I´ve been taking TRX2 for almost two months, and using Lumigan (Latisse) for about the same time. Stopped minoxidil for a while now, to see if Latisse works better, alone. Other than that, Finasteride or Saw Palmetto. So far, I haven´t seen any noticeable changes. I´m applying Lumigan just on the frontline, where I can see more easily results if they ever occur. I have many tiny weak hairs among the healthy ones and if they just got stronger and grew normally my hair would look much better and fuller, I suppose. But… still waiting, and hoping it works a bit at least!!!

  • gunther 86

    what is so annoying is all these things are being developed yet there is still nothing for the young people who do not suffer as much as us..those with say mild thinning and recession of the hairline..they will ontinue to receed until perhaps its too late to treat them with the cures being developed which may not work on fully bald heads

  • Ryan

    Well I don’t know about anyone else but I’m starting to give up hope of anything good happening.

  • Artista

    @Ryan… Your words> “..starting to give up hope..” are based on what..the silence? The silence we are experiencing isnt bad. Look at it metaphorically…A long flight from Rhode Island to Hawaii, sitting in COACH. Once you finally arrive, you step into good times.

  • Henry

    No cure until 2015 minimum so … what’s the point in coming here or any other forum ?

  • Maverick
  • julian

    How do you know, Henry? I´m curious.

  • Iwantsomehair

    Maverick,

    Thanks for the post. I think that article is from quite some time ago.

  • herzog

    Great article. Clearly from a while back though. It mentions intercytex, which went out of business 2 years ago.

  • allan

    i get a sick feeling watching lucifer hitzig’s video on hairsite, there going to be a place for people like him, karmas a bitch and cooley chargeing people for his plucking tests knowing it dosen’t work.

  • Maverick

    Hello again, I have found one interesting FDA article about Propecia. So if there is anyone out there considering taking it, I think this article should be useful in his research. I have learned in time to filter spam information so I rarely post things that I consider “suspicious”, I have crossed this one by accident it was published by FDA so I guess it is legit, you be the judge.

    I am sorry if there are any vagueness or misunderstandings in my writing, English is not my native language and I am trying to improve it.

    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm258314.htm

  • hairpaper

    The data on 5alpha-reductase inhibitors and prostate cancer is weak at best. The problem is that not every study has the same criteria. Even if you took the data as gospel do some digging online and I’m sure you can find that a number of good habits (e.g. eating broccoli once a week)would reduce any potential prostate risk differential to essentially insignificant percentage.
    If you’re not taking propecia but are 200 lbs overweight, you’re likely to have an much greater chance of prostate cancer and number of other cancers. I think the lesson is – if you’re going to take drugs for cosmetic benefit do your best to stay in shape and avoid drinking and smoking.

  • Tommy

    Gentlemen,

    While were waiting on follica, histogen, aderans, etc. news, I have a question. I’ve been on propecia for about 2 years, it’s made a dent somewhat on my hairloss, I’m still very very thin on top, but did stop hairloss. I’ve had no side effects from propecia. I’m currently considering Avodart. In study Finasteride 5mg grew 75.6 hairs in target area at 24 weeks. Mind you Propecia is 1mg. So it maybe grows 14 hairs max. Dutasteride 0.5 mg regrew 94.6 hairs. Would it be worth a shot? and how hard is it to get from a doctor, they are allowed to prescribe off-label, but will they? thanks for your advice guys.

    old article – http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/resources/hair-restoration-papers/dutasteride-vs-finasteride/

  • victimofdht

    Henry, 2015 ? I think you’re being optimistic a little. If we’re going to have something by 2015 I’m going to dance in the middle of the street. As desperate as I am, I dont think 2015 is going to be the year. From the looks of it, none of the big four seem to know whether they’re gonna have a successful treatment or not.

  • Henry

    That’s why I said minimum. Personaly, I don’t think we’ll have anything within the decade … and by the time we’ll get something, my life will already be screwed so I won’t care anymore.

  • Mojo Risin

    Eh … new update from Histogen website.

    Tissue Engineering and Regenerative Medicine International Society (TERMIS)
    Asia Pacific Annual Meeting
    August 3-5, 2011
    Singapore
    Dr. Gail Naughton to present “Human Tissue Engineered Soluble ECM Stimulates Hair growth While Inhibiting Cancer Cells”

    That’s … today.

  • Artista

    Great post Mojo..thank you. THANK YOU goes out to the ADMINS here for keeping things CIVIL.

  • A

    Bring it on Histogen

  • victimofdht

    Henry, my life is already screwed. By the time we have a treatment for hair loss -if that ever happens- I’ll probably be a homeless person living on the streets.

  • A

    TERMIS Asia Pacific Meeting 2011

    Schedule > TERMIS-AP 2011 > 3 August, Wednesday > 1100-1230 Concurrent Sessions and Symposia 1 > Session 1.2 Biomaterials I
    Updated in 7/28/2011 3:24:52 PM Viewed: 19 times (Proceedings)
    Tissue Engineering and Regenerative Medicine International Society Aisa Pacific Meeting 2011
    Human Tissue Engineered Soluble ECM Stimulates Hair Growth While Inhibiting Cancer Cells
    GK Naughton
    ABSTRACT
    Research has shown the importance of Wnt 7a, follistatin, and wound healing growth factors on the stimulation of bulge cells and inter-follicular stem cells to induce hair growth. We have developed a bioengineered human cell-derived formulation, termed Hair Stimulating Complex (HSC), consisting of such growth factors and morphogens. These factors are secreted neonatal fibroblasts seeded on microcarrier beads grown in suspension cultures under hypoxic conditions simulating the embryonic environment. Under these conditions over 5000 genes are differentially expressed as compared to normoxia and follicular stem cell surface markers are expressed, including LnX2, SOX 21, Nestin, NFATc1, and Krt 15.Following preclinical safety and efficacy studies in the C57Bl model, a clinical pilot study was undertaken. The double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized single site trial was primarily designed to evaluate safety of the HSC product with efficacy being the secondary goal. Data analysis indicated that HSC is safe and showed effectiveness in stimulating hair growth in subjects with male-pattern baldness. All subjects tolerated the procedures well and no adverse reactions were reported. The improvements from HSC treatment were significantly greater than that observed in placebo treated sites: hair shaft thickness (6.3% + 2.5% vs. -0.63% + 2.1%; p = 0.046), thickness density (12.8% + 4.5% vs. -0.2% + 2.9%; p = 0.028), and terminal hair density (20.6 + 4.9% vs. 4.4 + 4.9%; p = 0.029). Similar trends were seen at 52 wk, with total number of hairs increasing on the HSC-treated site. In addition, cancer lines have been “reprogrammed” by co-culture with embryonic ECM. Research with our embryonic-like soluble ECM has demonstrated its ability to diminish or eliminate tumor load in over 20 cancer cell lines, including melanoma, adenocarcinoma, colon cancer, glioma, mesothelioma, and prostate cancer, both in vitro and in two animal models. In the tumor chorioallantoic membrane (tumcam) model hECM significantly inhibited tumor growth with tumor mass being reduced in weight by up to 80%. In subcutaneous mouse experiments, tumor growth was also inhibited from 70-90% among the same cancer cell lines. The inhibitory affect is selective for malignant cells. Whereas most cancer therapies target rapidly dividing cells and not cancer stem cell, hECM has been shown to target both cell types through the upregulation of Caspase 9 which forces the cells into apoptosis.

  • Artista

    Thank you ‘A’

  • KKwilliams

    I cant make heads or tails of what that post actually means in terms of how beneficial hsc was.

    I might be misreading this info but it doesnt seem as promising as the original 73% growth increase stuff they originally hit us with.

    IM NOT complaining. Just unclear on what this new information is telling us.

  • tk

    It,s just a safety study, so I wouldn’t read too much into it. It’s great that there are no risks of cancer from HSC. This opens up the possibility of aggressive repeat treatments. This is an actually positive development, despite the descrepancy with the earlier results that were reported.

    I wish them the best of lucks, for all of us.

  • lurker

    I hope they all get moving, because the economy is about to collapse again.

  • Jacob

    The USA should just patent a cure as a country and release it. That would wipe out the entire American debt lol but true.

    has any data from the follica trials come out? last I heard thet had finished phase 2 completely off the radar.

  • Maverick

    One of the greatest inventions came after the World wars. After a good rumble economy always starts to blossom. Remember the crazy ´20(except the last year) and probably the most beautiful era in USA ever, the ´50.

  • julian

    Baldness sucks!!… I really don´t understand why this happens and it´s so common among men. I mean, so early in life, when men should look their best, is when they lose one of the things that make them look better. So, I don´t see the nature´s point here! I mean, it shouldn´t exist, or at least, should be rare, not the contrary. Or it should happen only when men get old and don´t need to look attractive anymore. you know, it puzzles me!!! should Darwin, a bald guy himself, have answered that?

  • lurker

    Julian,

    Not to derail the thread, but since there’s not much news, I’ll take your bait and respond.

    I have a theory on why men go bald. I think it’s so that they will mate, be family men and continue the human species. In that sense, it’s evolutionary. I know it sounds strange, but I think it’s pretty accurate.

    Guys sometimes need encouragement to settle down. A guy who knows his best years may be quickly behind him, may have more incentive to lock in a good girl earlier. I’m by no means saying a guy can’t look good or be confident bald. I’m saying on average, bald men tend to look worse than men with full heads of hair, at least facially. Because of this they tend to have less confidence and… in some cases this even effects other areas (their body, their mind), so it snowballs. The men who are balding and recognize this early, tend to settle down faster, knowing the inevitable future.

    In that sense, because it encourages procreation, it could be considered a good for human kind. That may be why it exists,… and hopefully one day we could say why it existED.

  • tk

    I think the issue here is that lifestyle and diet have greatly exacerbated a problem that existed before, but in much older men. Losing hair in the teens just isn’t normal by all means, and I have read enough on the subject to have reasons to believe that high sugar consumption, along with refined carbs, have a role to play in premature balding.

    I once saw a picture of a group of canadian soldiers just before D-day in Normandy. They were all about twenty years old, some older. NONE had any trace of hairloss on that picture. Take the picture now, and you would have a greatly different result.

    Another example. I was looking at posters of the players of the Montreal Canadiens through the years. Again, in the 30s, 40s and 50s, no players were showing signs of hairloss. Starting with the 70s, balding signs are becoming a lot more common.

    After a few years of losing my hairs (I was 22 I think), I went to a hairpiece shop, and the clerk had been doing this for over 20 years. She told me that 20 years ago, her clients were men in their 30s and 40s, but that nowadays (that was a while back btw), she was seeing a lot of guys in their early twenties coming with their mothers in tears.

    I’ve always believed that the real issue here was never hairloss itself, but rather the fact that it starts prematurely in many people. For me that is the real tragedy: having to deal with a disease of aging when you are still a teenager. I cannot begin to tell you just how much my life was (and still is) wrecked by this affliction.

    Looks like there is some end in sight though, if you have the money. So save up, and buy some of the cheap stocks out there. This is a great opportunity to lead up and buy hair later on. (Okay, so many you should wait a bit more…)

  • Iwantsomehair

    We are so due to receive a Ryan McBride update on Follica! Please Ryan, I’m anxious.

  • Metsie

    Seriously Ryan, call Daphnie and ask her to throw those poor bastards a bone.

  • Jacob

    It’s a shame there isn’t an option of paying to be part of a phase 3 trial, I’m sure there would be no shortage of people willing to get involved and pay at that stage, they should know how safe it is once phase 2 is over and have a very good idea about how well it will work.

  • Ryan

    Metsie & Iwantsomehair, you guys should know by now they won’t say anything. It’s going to be 4 years in January since the first story about Follica got all that attention on both xconomy and NBC, how insane is that, 4 years waiting for someone to say if it’s working or not.

    I think I read recently that Cotsarellis will be talking at another seminar in October, whether he’s been saying anything of importance to us at these things is a mystery, they did say they would reveal findings from trials in these types of meetings so maybe they have been doing that, they should have finished their phase 2 study that’s been done in Europe by now so they should know how effective that particular method was, although I don’t think that was the only thing they are testing and we don’t have a clue how far along they’re with any other potential mixture. All in all I can’t see anything happening soon and that is extremely depressing, we’ve got a condition that gets progressively worse and there’s not a thing most people can do to stop it.

  • julian

    My dream is to wake up someday and see the news that their product is on the shelves!! that would be so fckn wonderful that it´s hard to believe!! This announcement would change so many lives for better, it would be revolutionary!! Hope their silence is close to its end! C´mon Follica!!! let us be happier and you be very rich and famous!!

  • Iwantsomehair

    Julia, wake up! JK JK it’s always good to dream. Without a dream a wish can never come true.

  • Daniel Paul, conjurer

    I had a dream last night, that Follica released their product as an OTC cream. It came in toothpaste-like tubes, cost $10 and was green in colour.
    I bought some from the local Happy Harry’s and spread it on my napper, and within a few days saw my temples filling in, and a bunch of new dark hair growing.

    I was a bit disappointed when I woke up.

  • Artista

    I have this intuitive ‘gut’ feeling that something is around the bend, relatively speaking. Keep your chin up brothers.

  • tk

    No need to dream. Just be patient. HSC looks good, and we should have phase 2 results next year. It should be great for thinning hair, at the very least.

    Gotta say I have zero hope for Follica at this point. The last Costerellis comments weren’t encouraging.

    And if you only have receding temples, just go out and enjoy life. Worrying about receding temples at this point in time is rather ridiculous.

  • Iwantsomehair

    tk, what were the last costerellis comments?

  • curious

    Hey guys…
    So to fill up some space I wanted to post about quitting minoxidil but I don’t want to get back into that conversation about minoxidil that was happening before where people were arguing.

    While people were arguing before I decided to quit – about two months ago. It was giving me headaches/ burning and after reading more about it and hearing what some people here had to say about its sides I decided that applying it twice a day for who knows how long wasn’t really in my interest (I felt like I had to hide my shiny hair/ head for a couple of hours everyday until it set in). I also made the decision thinking that since I had only been using minox for about 6 months, give or take a month, I wouldn’t really see the fall out that people warn against when quitting. Also a sidenote, using that stuff mad me obsess about my hair. I’m not sure why but it had me looking in the mirror every other minute – maybe I was expecting to actually see hairs popping out and if I just caught it at the right time I could say “gotchya!” haha.

    The good about minox is that it definitely works! I used it on my hairline. While the results weren’t drastic, I did see my hair thicken a little and it push out my hairline ever so slightly and fill in some spots that I had thought were “about to go”. Anyone who wants to use minoxidil don’t expect your hair to change that much. It won’t grow any hairless areas back or if it does it will be minimal. I think this stuff should be used as a supplement to what you have not a fix for what you don’t.

    Anyway, I’m two months into quitting and I noticed a photo the other day that was pretty drastic from when I quit. So I took a look back at the photos I took at the beginning of the process for reference to how the treatment was going. The loss isn’t as drastic for anyone else to really notice but a good portion of the thickness is gone from the areas I was applying and my hairline as receded about 1.5 cm at the temples. This was somewhat shocking since it receded well passed the original hairline that was there before (I don’t think minoxidil did that much in pushing out my hair line maybe .5 cm at most).

    Conclusion is that I was surprised to see minox take out healthy hair like that. Supposedly it doesn’t affect non MPB/ healthy hair and you will go back to your original plus what you would have lost anyway but I don’t think losing that much in 6 months would have happened. I’ve read that your hair does recover after the initial loss of quitting but we’ll see – I’m only 2 months in. In the end I do think minox affects healthy hair so if you do consider using it… take it seriously. Losing this much has helped me cope with MPB better actually though – I hope that eventually I’ll get to the point where it doesn’t bother me at all but it definitely gave me some perspective. And of course before I ever go bald I hope that they come out with a cure*** for all of those people who want to argue that they will never be content with bald. :)
    Comments and questions if you like.

  • Shooter

    That’s interesting, curious.

    I use minox on and off and I definitely notice a positive difference when I apply it consistently. When I stop, I also notice that it seems to weaken previously healthy hairs. Not really sure why.

    I really like what you said about how losing more hair helped you cope with MPB a little bit better. Oddly enough, I feel that way as well.

  • curious

    @Shooter

    I think it is the fear of change that makes people (including me) so worried. ie if they knew what they would look like when they are bald they could cope with it and move forward.

    Have you ever quit minox long enough to see the “full effects” wear off. I’ve read in a few places that after the shed you do regrow some of the healthy hair that was lost back – I think someone actually put out the number of 80%. You hear of anything like that? It doesn’t seem to be concrete by any means so I am not banking on it but did see people talking about it when I was doing research on whether or not to quit. What’s your experience?

  • julian

    Since nothing happens we have to talk about rogaine, that is sad… ow my gosh!!

  • Iwantsomehair

    At the end of 2011 Aderans should be posting their phase 2 results. They seem to still be on pace to release a product by 2014! IF someone said that in 2.5 years we will have a viable solution would you all be satisfied?

  • julian

    like Amy sang: NO NO NO!!… I don´t wanna hear that anymore, dude!!! no more of this BS anymore, please!! I WANT IT NOW!!! LOL

  • julian

    and I think, and I hope, that follica´s rabbit is about to pop out of their topper!!! please follica, please!!! I´ll love you for the rest of my life!!!

  • Joey

    Here’s my rant. It seems like these companies could not move any slower if they wanted to. We’ve been hearing the same crap for decades. Just go on any hair website and you’ll see they were being told the same crap for years. These companies seem to be running some type of ponzi scheme. I mean people keep investing, but the companies don’t seem to be in any hurry to find cure. You would think they want to be the first one, but probably just happy collecting investor money and doing nothing. I mean we hardly ever get any updates, these companies have been working on these cures forever!! The last thing we got was propecia in 1997, little result for high cost!!! I think there is some conspiracy behind Merck, because really nothing in almost 15 years since?? By the time they come out with something to help moderate hair loss I will need a completley new drug that I will never see.

    On a positive note, aderans is saying 2014/15, histogen 14/15, follica? who knows?, replicel? I mean realistically what does everyone think? Should we really get our hopes up and then get crushed again? Is there anything else? So depressing…. tired of being bald and waiting… ugh…..

  • hairpaper

    There is no conspiracy. It’s the way medical research is. As the head of the National Cancer Institute wrote in an article about 15 years ago (paraphrased) “we can send a man to the moon but haven’t cured cancer because we know the principles of physics, the calculations, involved in sending a shuttle to the moon but not how a cell operates.” I’ve been in research for a long while now and have known good people in cancer research who have died of cancer. Some of them even tried last ditch efforts with the latest and greatest technology at the time of their demise, to no avail. Yet I’ve still had lay people idiotically ask me if I thought it was a conspiracy, that the government had a cure. Ahh….no. That’s why the report about CLL anticancer therapy the other day was such big news. Big news for a therapy that worked well, but not 100%, for a mere three people who had a specific cancer (there are hundreds of types of cancers).

    Between all the companies directly working on a hair regrowth therapy, they could all fail or all succeed. But that also depends on what their measure of success is. To say that any one company is going to completely cure a disease is asking a lot.

    My attitude was/is go to your local researcher. People talk about local growers when it comes to produce but completely neglect the fact that there are now incredible amount of research centers in the modern world. If you aren’t in research, why not contact local researchers in skin disease, etc.? You’d be surprised how many projects have begun literally out of random interest of a new student or someone with a hereditary disease making the right phone call or email. At least this is a legal way of going about taking action if sitting around and waiting drives you up the wall.

  • victimofdht

    2014-2015, eh ? We’ll see about that. At least it’s not the usual “5-10 years”. These guys either really have something in their hands or are just bluffing- to keep investors’ money rolling in.

  • Juliano

    in 2014 we know what theses companies (follica, histogen and replicel) have in their hands… Maybe this companies will fail but probably we´ll know until there
    And i don´t know about aderans…

  • julian

    Well, we gotta see it soon cause we can´t wait that much since the end of the world is next year already!! so better hurry up!!!!!!

  • Franky

    I hope it’s before 2014, and I wish I knew which of the big 4 will win!!!! Those investors will make billions if it works!!

  • julian

    I don´t care who will make billions anyway. Me bet, and hopes, has always been with Follica though. And the fact they keep so silent is both annoying and exciting at the same time. Well, I just want my billions of hairs back again!!! wanna be rich of hair only again!!! lol

  • Maverick

    I think some outside player will make it and take the glory for Follica, Aderans and other half cocked, silent, false promising bastards. That would be a poetic justice. Just to see them watch that billions go somewhere else.

  • victimofdht

    Maverick, that is my prediction too- some never heard of company beating all of these guys to a treatment and putting these lying bastards out of their misery…and funding. So far, it seems all their stuff is nothing but sand castles. I hope I’m wrong but their silence and secrecy, and history of empty promises aren’t good signs.

  • tk
  • Shooter

    Enter the FDA. Destroyer of dreams.

  • julian

    Well, I´m doing the test myself already. Applying Lumigan, same thing as Latisse, once a day to a small area along my hairline. My hope is that it strengthens the weak and thin hairs and if it did just that I´d be more than thankful. So far, there´re many of these but I have to see if they´ll grow and thicken normally. I´m using it for two months now. I´ll keep you informed.

  • Poster

    Hey all, three patents from Follica that became public in June. these are not the lithium patents so far as I can tell. Haven’t read through them yet, just wanted to post them.

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/result.html?query_txt=Follica%2C+Inc.&sort=relevance&srch=top&search=

  • hairpaper

    Interesting to see something in writing, but pretty much what the company reps stated they’d be working on. Wounding, followed by drug treatment. The wounding done with a laser, by some automated method, and delivery of drugs by gel injection or whatever the 50 different variants claimed. Thanks for the contribution. Of course this doesn’t mean their method works but it’s nice to at least have something to look over.

  • julian

    An excerpt: “In contrast with known techniques for bisecting hair follicles and as described more fully herein, the present methods and systems permit the bisection of single follicles or populations of follicles with a high degree of efficiency, and thereby represent an effective treatment option for those in need of increased hair growth.”

    it looks pretty good to me

  • hairpaper

    Last year I patented a method that worked very weakly. We patented that tech because we didn’t want someone else (maybe, someday) to use that tech, improve it and overtake our current technology. The current methods we use in the lab are patented, but unlike last years patent we care about the tech.

    A patent plain and simple gives you the right to block someone else from working on technology. You generally don’t write in a patent “this technology is ineffective.” This is not to be cynical, but obtaining a patent is a far cry from getting a paper in Nature and undergoing peer review and providing primary data. And patents don’t speak to efficiency (no matter how wonderful the wording is).

    I don’t have lots of patents. Some PhD friends of mine have dozens of patents and only a very few of those patents have turned a profit. Again, small biotechs generally obtain patents to protect themselves.

    Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

  • julian

    I really don´t believe Follica is patenting a method that works very weakly. I may be wrong but something tells me these guys have something bigger than that! that´s why I´ve kept my bet on them. let´s see!!

  • hairpaper

    My point is, they would be default patent anything they’ve worked on. Obtaining a patent doesn’t equate with success. What if they were on the right track but gave up on a method because the success rate was 1%. Without patent protection someone could come up with the same idea a year later and Follica wouldn’t have the foundation patent.

    Inetellectual property (IP) is something investors punch into their equation when it comes to keeping the funding. Who wants to invest a company that can’t protect any of its technologies?

    Great, be optimistic because of the progress in science or other reason but not patents. Intercytex had patents….

  • Aleluia

    intercytex has done a big error: they tried to create around 7 different treatments in the same moment so the money finished
    this is a big difference between these companies…
    not big news:
    http://www.replicel.com/replicel-names-tom-kordyback-chief-financial-officer/

  • A Lad Insane

    I’m pretty hopeful overall about Follica’s treatment, but since I don’t want to wait, I decided to get on dutasteride.
    Didn’t notice any difference at all for 3 months, then in the 4th month a buttload (pardon the expression) of vellus hairs appeared, some a few mm long, where before there was nothing at all.
    Now, all of a sudden, some of these have become dark terminal hairs. It’s probably not so much that anyone would notice (yet) but it’s regrowth nonetheless.
    I haven’t noted any side effects yet, although (and this is kind of embarrassing), I wonder if my hormone balance has been upset. I seem to have a strong urge to wear a dress!
    Anyone else had this on dutasteride?

  • Dan

    A Lad Insane,

    I would like to get on dutasteride as well. How did you go about getting it? Most derms won’t prescribe? Will a hair surgeon or online be legit? Keep us updated on your progress too

  • Poster

    @hairpaper – I agree with your statement that patents do not necessarily mean technological success or viability. However, I do see some positive signs from the approach that Follica has taken to protect their IP.

    To begin with, not all patent applications are created equally. It is true that anyone can, quite easily, file for a patent. Follica has in the past used reputable law firms, their lithium patent was drafted by Jones Day LLP’s New York office. A purely defensive patent, or a patent not made in good faith, especially one filed on a startups budget, would not justify the high cost that Follica may have spent to protect their intellectual property.

    My anecdotal interpretation of their patent is quite positive in that it is comprehensive and difficult to decipher. Their patent is not a one page statement, but a complex legal document that took some time to craft. In other words, it looks like it cost a lot of money, and it also conceals the exact method they are honing in on. I thi somewhere buried in that legal and medical jargon is a working method. That is just my optimistic take. Interested to hear what others think.

    And where the heck is Xconomy with an update? There has been a lot of movement from Follica, and yet not a peep from Ryan.

  • julian

    Poster, I´m with you. It´s not a one more patent at all!! it´s enormous work and it signals these guys can´t be kidding about it! not all patents are the same thing and we know their work is serious.

  • Happy1

    David Bowie fan, A Lad Insane?

    I’ve been on Avodart for about 3 years. No sides. Certainly not about wearing a dress.
    Although I saw a pair of cute pumps the other day…

    Hope it works for you. It worked really well for me for about a year. After that I had a shed I believe that was triggered by a cortizone shot. Never really came back fully after that. Seeing good response with minox though in tandem with the Avodart.

    I was able to obtain Avodart through my doctor. I am just shy of 50. I wanted it for my prostate (works great for that) I also told him I was interested in it as a replacement for Propecia. As he had prescribed that for me as well, He had no problem with writing me one for Avodart. FYI: one should not take both.

    I would stay on Propecia until it no longer works. Say 3-4 years. If Propecia did not work for you, I doubt Avodart will either.

  • patientlywaiting

    is there any interesting news yet since last year?

    or should i go back to shaving my head?

  • victimofdht

    Has any one heard about this ? Is this actually available in Germany or it’s just talk ?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAS_k1IrJpA&feature=player_embedded

  • Artista

    A very cool video ‘Victim’ I wonder when that report was actually produced. The idea of using a 3D matrix to cultivate hair follicles is very creatively novel.

  • froggy

    The video is very interesting.

    It’s maybe the answer to a question I’ve been asking myself for a while.

    I don’t know if you remember the link to video of Dr Washenik in Paris I’ve posted earlier:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j79WqncOAT4

    In this video Dr Washenik sayed that it’s very easy to get some “roots of hairs” see the at 4:45. But the result is a ball of hairs and the difficulty is to get a natural look.

    When I saw this I thought is it possible to inject thoses “roots of hairs” like the hairs in FUE? Would the hairs be viable?

    Is the german video the answer? Because it seems to be the same procedure and they say that it would be possible.

    And remember the Dr Jahoda’s experience.

    But if it would be possible why don’t they do this while waiting for the holly graal: one injection for a full head of hair?
    Maybe it’s not possible of inject the “roots of hair”(cost, technic, result, efficacity) or maybe they don’t have the patent or maybe they are so close to get the ultimate solution that they don’t think it’s interesting to develop a method that would be obsolete in a very near future.

    What do you think?

    Sorry for my bad english. This is why I didn’t post my thinking and because i am not in medicine stuff.

  • Aleluia

    Doctor Uses Robotic Arm To Perform Hair Transplant: Local Patient Is First In World To Receive New Restoration Procedure

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/education/28881883/detail.html

  • Iwantsomehair

    I am in love with a girl in my office, however she is married. I think she has similar feelings about me though. What do you think I should do?

  • tk

    @Iwantsomehair,
    Married? Forget it, too much trouble. If she would cheat on her husband with you, then she would probably wind up doing the same thing to you down the road, right?
    And don’t say you are in love, it’s naive. You have some kind of a crush, that’s all.
    Just trying to kick you out of it. ;)

  • Artista

    Very good advice ‘tk

    I certainly did like that video that ‘Aleluia’ linked for us. What great technology. The Strip Method is on its way out~thank Zeus

  • hairpaper

    Hi Poster,

    I want to be clear that I don’t think Follica is going to crash and burn, or that I at least hope they don’t. Of course I wish them all the best but this is what I do for a living so I want to emphasize to the uninformed that obtaining a patent doesn’t equate with success. I absolutely understand from the point of view of individuals who had given up hope that the patents seem fresh, new, and an indicator that success must have been achieved.

    I’ve been in the same boat as Follica, so let me clarify two points. One, a ‘small’ company like Follica may have filed patents pre-series A. Follica would not have owned that tech, UPenn would have. E.g. the first Nature paper with Cots. describing wounding and de novo hair follicle formation was UPenn’s tech, but Follica would have taken a license to that tech for a percentage of the profit. Post series A (whatever it was 5M or 10M) they could afford even a high end law firm to work out a patent. It’s a few days work, maybe 15-20K per patent. Yes, a pain for the average individual but not a big deal. I do speak from experience since I’ve worked with a great firm in NYC.
    Lawyer fees – pre-series A the lawyers typically send you bills….but you don’t pay that first year or two unless you hit series A. Again, we’re talking 30-60K that first year, not great if you’re just scraping by but manageable post series A.

    I agree 100% that the patent is comprehensive, difficult to decipher depending on who you ask. When you go from protocol to patent it’s fairly normal for the patent to seem vastly different. Part of the it is the game, even choosing a title for the patent. Why have an easy to find technology when you could ensure potential competitors can’t easily find your work? I don’t make this stuff up! It’s what people in law, in technology transfer, told me years ago.
    The patent in its entirety doesn’t conceal the inventors method, the devil is in the details. The method is there, the patent legally has to allow “someone trained in the art” to execute the invention. Part of the confusion is that you are in trouble if you sit down and write up a materials and methods that will be published in a science journal. That’s a good start, but submitting verbatim would screw you over. You have to be as broad as possible to cover all bases, and that’s what the lawyers specialize in. Take a look at a few different employment contracts and you’ll see what I mean. The language takes on this cryptic style that frustrates a lot of people wanting to know the details.

  • Eric

    Hairpaper,

    Do you think you could email me, I’d like to pick your brain and ask you a few questions, my email is ericsamuel42@yahoo.com.

    Thanks.

  • julian

    But why all this work and care to protect something that doesn´t work? because by now they should know if it is really effective and safe, and therefore, valuable.

  • tk

    @julian,
    You are WAY too optimistic about very trivial developments. While it’s good to keep your hopes ups, in my experience this leads people not to focus on the here and now.

    This being said, it looks likely that Histogen, ARI and Replicel might have something in the 3-10 year range. Heck, some form of HM is even available right now (but is too taboo to mention here for some reason I just can’t understand.)

    But right now Follica is a long shot. Intercytex had plenty of patents, yet nothing came out of it in the end. So let’s not read into patents more than hairpaper will let us. He’s the resident expert on such issues here.

  • julian

    tk.. I´m not WAY too much optimistic, I´m just optimistic from what I´ve been reading about and don´t see reason not to be. How do you know it´s a long shot? I didn´t read into the patent, wouldn´t even try that. Hairpaper knows a lot off course but he can´t tell if Follica has or hasn´t something and in which stage they are. He´s just preventing us from getting too much excited about it because it doesn´t mean that much. And I´m saying ok, but that doesn´t mean that little.

  • julian

    “The present disclosure provides methods and systems that increase the number of hair-producing follicles on a body surface by two-fold or more, representing a valuable treatment for subjects suffering from male- or female-pattern hair loss, pathological hair loss, or hair loss after injury.”

    This is an objective statement about “something” that was tested, measured and proved to be effective. So, are they lying?

  • tk

    Impossible for me to say, ask hairpaper…

    What I mean to say is, focus on the here and now. Save your money, enjoy life. And use whatever meds you can afford in the meantime. A Paleo diet also does wonder for hairloss, since it reduces insulin.

    Honestly, we don’t need hope, just time and money.

    I presume you are rather young, like most posters here. I would hate you to make the same mistakes I did.

  • j

    this is so annoying… truly frustrating. I cant believe how long it has been since follica came out!!! and we still have nothing!! when will this misery end!!! comon already!!!

  • julian

    tk, you think hairpaper knows everything? c´mon…

  • Bob

    Follica are the biggest crooks in the industry.

  • KKwilliams

    It is obviously a no-brainier that follica has patents filed. This does not mean they are sure they have an effective treatment. It is just a way to protect themselves.

    Everyone needs to just relax. Just because people spend so much time on these forums does not mean any of these companies owe you any information. We wont have any real news to dissect into a million bits and pieces for at least a few months and coming on here over and over expecting anything new is just insanity.

    Apparently follica finished phase 2 but they have always been very secretive so I doubt we will here much from them until a) they begin phase 3 or B)stop trials due to safety or low efficacy.

    Histogen just begun(I haven’t seen confirmation anywhere) Phase 1/2 Trials so we wont be hearing any results from them until at least April 2012[8 months] and most likely even longer than that.

  • julian

    well, first of, I guess by now they have to be sure. I´d say they already were pretty confident 3 years ago. By now they must know their potencial whatever it is. About insanity, you´re right, it´s insane I agree but that´s what hairloss does: drives one insane!! I think some people accept it better than others, apparently. Unfortunately I´m not one of these. I´ll always tell it shouldn´t exist!! we don´t lose hairs in any other part of our bodies, and hairs that we don´t need, don´t want, have no use!! WHY just where they´re most wanted, most needed, most useful (to protect against heat, sun, etc) and to make us more attractive, why exactly in this part do we have to lose it all along our lives, and so early in many cases?? WHYYYY? I´ll never understand that, in terms of biology.

  • Shooter

    http://www.aderansresearch.com/pdfs/AtlBusChronAug11.pdf

    The good news is, 150 million is a real investment (and 50 mill is going specifically to commercialization).

    The bad news is we still have no idea how effective this treatment is.

  • julian

    I didn´t like it at all. Aderans is not the one, definetely! No way that our savior will be the world´s biggest manufacturer of wig!! and what they aim?: to compete with Rogaine and Propecia and complement hair transplants. They say their best results are at least as good as anything that´s out there for growing hair?! Really?!! It makes me laugh!!! they´re mediocre!!!!!!!

  • Artista

    Julian, how in the world could you have that point of view? Ive been to one of their (Aderans), trial clinics last year. These people are deeply involved and serious about this technology. Why would you define them as ‘mediocre’? Not that this is a good analogy but, If someone were to walk up to you and hand you a $20 dollar bill, would you then criticize and complain that you were not handed a $50 bill? I mean, goodness gracious>>a 150 MILLION dollar investment in this research isn’t chicken feed. At least not to me it isn’t. Im completely impressed and very optimistic
    .

  • julian

    They´re seeing their hair regeneration technology as “another product to market” BESIDES their wigs!!

  • Artista

    What company WOULD NOT see the hair regeneration tech’ as marketable? You are defining Aderans as only a wig company. You might not know this but at one time for decades the company name ‘Bally’ was synonymous with PINBALL machines..only. Today they are a multimillion dollar company primarily known for HEALTH CLUBS. (heavy into the casino biz too) My point is , like Bally Aderans is ‘business progressive’. Dont let your emotions blind you Jul’ A 150 mil’ investment is …huge

  • tk

    I think this is a great development.

    julian, you are setting yourself up for a major disappointment if you expect to rub a cream and get all your hair back forever in the next 5 years. Nonetheless, all of these new treatments combined, along with what we already have now, can probably work for 80% of hair loss sufferers.

    We have ARI, Histogen, Gho (whatever some people may say), Replicel, and perhaps even Bitamaprost. If you combine this with DHT blockers (which don’t work forever of course), then with money and patience, hairloss should not impact your life too much.

    But there will be no silver bullet like what people are expecting of Follica. Such a development would be extremely unlikely in the next 5 years. Optimism can make you feel good for a while, but realism is a much better perspective in the long term.

    I’m quite glad with all the developments. it,s amazing that we have all these different teams working on products with a quite varied method of action. The good thing is that they may wind up having an additive effect. So you get HSC, then ARI, and for whatever doesn’t work, get HSI.

    Good stuff all around.

  • James

    Shooter first off nice post! and Artista, your optimism these past years is admirable.

    I Haven’t posted in a long time, because when you don’t look everyday for an answer, when you do look the developments surprise you! You step back and see the bigger picture!

    Theres a life to be lived outside of worrying about hair!

    A hair raising notion I know!

  • Aleluia

    Many people think that the cure becomes by a correct approaching then, more than money, the important thing would be technically correct…
    BUT besides the correct procedure, you need the money to develop it and treading the way
    This is why $150 milion on aderans is so important
    BTW i used to go to hairsite.com but this place is so much better… thank you guys

  • hairpaper

    @ Eric – sure, I will drop you a line.
    I was going to check for updates here sooner but still without power at home (Irene!). I am only logging on now towards the end of the work day. I miss my home internet…that and all the food that’s spoiled.

  • julian

    Forget about Aderans, if your interest is not a wig or a hair transplant. 100 million and what have they got? a “as good as anything that´s out there for growing hair” prospect. Their technology is weak to say the least if that is all they´ve really got. A huge amount of money for almost nothing if it´s that. And yes, my bet is Follica! We don´t know how they are, but they seem to be far ahead of the others. And, believe it or not, they claim to produce a “two-fold or more” increase in the number of hair follicles. But until they don´t pronounce about their developments all is uncertain. But I keep betting on them.

  • hairpaper

    Julian,

    Sorry for not responding sooner. I don’t have power at home, maybe not for a few more days. To answer your concerns – Follica has to have had something work. You can’t file for a patent unless you’ve reduced the invention to practice. The problem is how efficient is the technology. Similar to a lot of work published from academic groups, private companies put their best foot forward. What I mean by that is, if something barely worked it won’t block you from getting that patent. As long as you can file that patent and worry about optimization later. Now Follica is safe to work on their method, but there is zero way of knowing if they are getting such lackluster results that they are in the midst of 2-3 more wild card methods. Small biotech in a nutshell – high risk, high reward.

    As far as what undesirable scenarios could have taken place, well there are plenty. Let’s leave it at Follica employees are doing their job as anyone would expect, but it remains to be seen if their product is sh**. But (and you didn’t hear this from me) I am ALL for independent experimentation. If you want to simulate their work by all means go for it.

    The one thing regarding patents that puts the individual at an advantage over a private company is that we don’t have to care about licensing tech. If you can mix tech A+B+C and get results, who cares?

  • julian

    So, that´s my point. Nobody knows cause they never tell. Until the day comes when Cotsarellis or Zohar or anyone who is involved gives us some information we never know. But they wouldn´t file a patent for some technology that barely works. About how efficient it is:

    again, it´s written there:

    “The present disclosure provides methods and systems that increase the number of hair-producing follicles on a body surface by two-fold or more”…

    it says how efficient it is!!

    it also, in the end of the document, describes a kind of complex machine, computer that makes the dermabrasion and injects the compound… it´s very complex, or intended to make us think that it is!! not easy stuff!!! so it´s not something that can be done at home!!

    I don´t know. I think – and hope of course – they´re about to present us their “thing”.

  • ZZ

    Good to hear from you James!

  • Juki

    hey guys..
    what about this?
    http://www.bosleymedicalviolations.com/

  • odd

    “Yale scientists find stem cells that tell hair it’s time to grow”

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-09-yale-scientists-stem-cells-hair.html

    Maybe people just need to get fat injected into their scalps?

  • Caddillac

    @ Julian. I dont think you understand the purpose of patents. Follica, histogen and any other company developing anything will definitely patent their technology regardless os whether it works or not.

    It is a way to protect themselves from someone stealing it down the line. Basically they sped 100k or whatever amount of dollars to protect future earnings of possible billions. Its not complicated. patents being filed does not mean anything in terms of success.

    @ Odd. thats more good news for researchers to build on and could help down the line with a new treatment idea or method. Another piece of the puzzle.

    @ Everyone

    People are freaking out saying Histogen is dead because they removed clinical progress chart and possible release date 2014 stuff from their website. Overreaction or could be trouble?

  • Tom

    Cadillac,

    My gut reaction is Histogen is now dead. I mean if this is info is true, how do you remove progress/release info from your website, not say anything, and rest of website remains the same?? This definitely won’t help attract investors. Maybe they found the cure, and no more research is needed, I wish. Also, on a side note I emailed Gail Naughton about a month ago and never heard back, although I didn’t really expect to.

    I personally think our best hope is with Replicel. There website keeps you up to date and hopefully once these current trials are done we will know if it might work. Unfortunately, it may take 5-6 months, I think from there website. Follica and Aderans have no idea what’s going on, although I really hope and pray I’m wrong.

    For me and many others my hair is going, going, almost all gone. It’s very hard to deal with, but my hope lives and dies with these companies. Unfortunately, you have to remember it’s business first, companies will milk it even if they don’t have it for as long as they can. How can you tell which companies are putting on a poker face and which are for real? Only time will tell, and I think histogen may have ran out.

    How does everyone else feel? Does anyone have confidence in Replicel? Anyone else?

  • rev

    You can always call or email histogen with your concerns.

  • julian

    I´ve never had much confidence in Histogen so I´m not surprised at all. I prefer Replicel to Aderans a 150 million times if I were to pick one of them. But as I always tell my bet is Follica and will be until the end despite most people here, for a reason that I don´t understand, don´t like them. For me, it´s Follica or We´re Fucked!! sorry to put that way.

  • tk

    I also wrote to Dr Naughton last month, but never heard back.

    Looks like the product will be delayed… But we have no idea at this point, so let’s not make any assumptions.

    There is really no solid info on Replicel, just fancy infographics. ARI is looking okay, if they can grow 30 hairs per cm2 on most patients. You might be able to repeat the procedure later on, who knows?

  • tk

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/09/01/going-bald-the-cells-that-could-be-to-blame/

    This is pretty exciting stuff. They will probably have a cure in 5 years.

    Right?

  • Artista

    Keep in mind this recent development,”Yale researchers have discovered the source of signals that trigger hair growth..” This isnt trivial news folks. Of course there will be naysayers who will comment something like,,’yea when will that make a difference…20 years?? aww forget about it!’ I for one am very INTERESTED to see where this takes us.It could, change the scope of the research and development.

  • Artista

    So ABC news has jumped on it now…there you go.

  • Eric

    Shoot me an email when you can hairpaper. Thanks.

  • hairpaper

    So, not to take on an adversarial stance, I want to point out
    “But they wouldn´t file a patent for some technology that barely works.” is simply wrong.

    One of my points was, and I thought I made it clear, is that you have to reduce an invention to practice. If you were the first to invent an iPhone, but it weight 100lbs, had to be plugged into a 220V outlet and was slightly radioactive, it wouldn’t matter for the purpose of a patent. You could patent the invention, the concept. Ten years later if you were on prototype B or C, or D and another company comes out with a great invention without all the hiccups, but based on your core technology, you’re protected. I invented a tech involving a somewhat complex device but in the end it was far easier to work with modified bacteria. BUT, what is someone modified my tech and beat me at my own game? I would be protected and at least have the patent to the core concept.

    In biotech you don’t cry over spilled milk, you patent the spill process, how not to spill milk and unique methods for spilling milk without moving the glass. Nothing goes to waste, everything that had a beginning, middle and an end gets patented.

  • julian

    Ok, I´ve got that already. But what do you say about their affirmation that their technology produces a two-fold increase in hair-producing follicles?

    I suppose they had their core concept patented more than three years ago, when they announced it as a “breakthrough”, remember? But I get your message, that a patent is just a way to protect your invent while you work to perfect it and get it done.

    As I said, nobody knows what´s happening there so all the optimism or pessimism that we may feel and express is based mostly on guesswork.

  • julian

    So, rectifying: you can file a patent for a technology that barely works and is still a long way from being final and really effective!! A patent in this case serves to make sure nobody will steal your half-way work done.

    It just doesn´t seem to be the case of this last patent of theirs, if you take a look at it. But it can. Nobody knows. Guesswork is all any of us can do.

  • tk

    @julian,

    A patent doesn’t imply the method works. End of story. Intercytex had plenty of patents.

    They’re working on st, but there is no proof anything is working, even less ready for commercialization.

  • julian

    Ok, I know that. I´ve got it a million years ago!! BUT it doesn´t imply it doesn´t work either!! end of story.

  • tk

    @julian,
    The thing is, there are millions of patents out there, and most of them are for procedures that don’t work. So you have to assume these procedures don’t work until proven otherwise.

    Otherwise you are setting yourself up for some major disapointments. And even worse, this sort of false hope might prevent you from fully living your life, and perhaps doing other things to help your hair loss in the meantime.

    Just my two cents. Trust me, I’ve been waiting for a cell-based cure for nearly twenty years. This kind of stuff takes time.

  • julian

    I know tk, thank you for your concern. But I´m living my life and enjoying it the best I can. I´m not setting myself up for a major disapointment about this matter once I know there´s no assurance of success for Follica or any company pursuing a new treatment.

    I just think theirs is the most ingenious, inventive, original, not conventional idea. It´s not an obvious cloning of hairs or just a growth factors´s cocktail. I just find it superior, NO guarantee that it will work. They most probably have advanced it but there´s no way to know (unless they tell us) if they´re close or not to the finish.

    About false, or true, hopes: Hoping is part of life and we´ll always hope when there´s a chance. An adult should have learned to deal with disapointments already. I´m an adult, don´t worry. But thanks again!!

  • tk

    @julian,
    Good to know you’re not as miserable as I am. ;)

  • froggy

    Tom and Cadillac

    Maybe I’am wrong but 2014 is still a possible release date (2015 for the United States):
    http://www.histogen.com/products/hsc.htm

    And the clinical status is still available:
    http://www.histogen.com/products/clinical_status.htm

    I’am more worry by the fact that there is no Histogen patent concerning HSC:
    http://www.histogen.com/products/patents.htm

    But if the pictures (in preclinical trial) are true Histogen seams to be really efficient and is a real chance to have very good treatment is the near future.
    http://www.histogen.com/aboutus/news_events.htm#25

  • Jacob
  • tk

    @froggy,
    There is no way to access the links you mentioned directly from the home page. They changed the “product” category to “applications”. Under the new category, these links you mentioned are in no way available.

    I agree HSC is looking great, so let’s not panic over some website rearrangement.

    I wrote to them actually, asking them about the change, and will let you know if I ever receive any reply.

  • froggy

    Excellent.

    Thanks A LOT Jacob.

    Very interesting.

    I’am not in medecine stuff but it seems that HSC works very well on mouse and the pictures of preclinical trials shows that it also work on human even with small dosage.
    Dr Washenik seems to be very confident in his declarations and facts are there: international congress, size of the trials (several hundreds of subjects), amount of the recent investments, special investments for the commercialisation (50M$) etc…
    I was also very excited at the time by Follica but they don’t share anything.
    And don’t forget Replicel.

    For us no matter who will be the winner of this very big market(except for the price of the treatment) but things are moving faster and faster.
    Competition is our best chance.

    But like Tk and Julian said: let’s hope but keep in mind that until it’s not on the market it’s still possible that everything failed.

  • ZZ

    Replicel update at link below. Nothing really new although they may be just slightly behind schedule. They are reporting re-injection of final subject. Still on track to report their interim analysis by the end of Q1 2012. No adverse reactions to date.

    http://www.replicel.com/replicel-injects-final-patient-with-hair-follicle-cells-in-its-first-in-man-clinical-trial-ts001-2009/

  • Artista

    Thanks ZZ For some reason updates like that can give one a boost of confidence. I wish i were in the inner circle of this type of research. Although i can imagine it must be quite mundane and tedious, but to be there to witness the results,the fruits of your labor so to speak, on something that would have such a MAJOR IMPACT on our society-id love it.

  • tk

    Saw the Replicel release on Marketwatch as well.

    This doesn’t bode too well for the release date if my understanding is right. I mean, this means the phase 1 results will be out in 2013? We’ll be lucky is this is out by 2020…

    But the good news is that they are treating NW 3 to 6. This means they are pretty confident that this will really grow hair, not just add a bit of density to thinning areas.

    Can’t wait to be an old geezer! I’ll start shopping around for a good wheelchair as well.

  • Tom

    Great update ZZ. I’m happy Replicel is letting us know what is going on. However, the timeline is a bit of a downer. I mean even if everything went great, end of 2013 at earliest for safety data. Then would there be more testing? TK is probably right, 2020 and by then I won’t even care anymore. If it could go to market early 2014 it would be unbelievable. Has anyone sent contacted replicel on timeline? They gave contact info on article. Also,any idea when Follica or Aderans will tell us something? I think it’s been there turn for a while now.

  • ZZ

    I don’t believe the time line is as bad it might appear at first glance b/c clinical testing will be more contemporaneous than sequential. The offcial end to this Phase I study is 2013 but that is only b/c they want to monitor for safety for an extended period. They have already laid the groundwork for Phase II trials (assuming positive results) which are scheduled to beigin in 2012 (See the last sentence on the this link (http://www.replicel.com/about/corporate-overview/

    And they also say in the question/answer section, in response to the question “Do you have a rough estimate of how long it will take for the treatment to be available to the public?” that “A commercial product is not possible before at least 2013.”

    http://www.replicel.com/hair-loss/faqs/

    This sounds to me (again assuming positive results)that they are thinking more in the range of 2014-2015 (or in a wet dream 2013) than 2020. By that time they should have had enough subjects under injection for a long enough period of time to eliminate any safety concerns.

  • Aleluia

    if in 2020 we have a GREAT treatment, i really don´t care, seems too good to me

  • A Lad Insane

    Dan, I obtained it legitimately online here in the UK. I can give details if you need them.
    I’ll keep you posted too if/when there’s any more progress.

    Happy1, yep, I’m a huge Bowie fan!
    And do tell about the cute pumps, they sound gorgeous! (What’s happening to me? aaaaaaaargh)

  • ZZ

    Here’s a brand new interview with David Hall, CEO of Replicel.

    http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6100

  • tk

    I listened to the whole interview. 2015 at the earliest, if the FDA allows them to release the procedure after phase 2. Somehow I doubt this will happen.

    They first have to grow hair anyway, which right now we don’t even know they can do. So this is all very premature, and it’s a high risk endeavour.

    But it looks promising. They are even developing a device to automate the injection procedure. Great stuff.

    Hopefully they can actually grow hair…

  • allan

    well it looks like aderans first in the usa. if aderans have 7 protocals to test in phase 2 . wonder if one of them is with the cup cells like replicel? you would think they have read the papers the guys from replicel published in early 2000’s, i think aderans is going to pick the best one for phase 3. something tells me they are also doing what lauster from germany is doing also, outside the body hairs. that patent from april 2007. but who knows? don,t get a transplant like me, buzz it and wait and see what happens with cloning. a scared head is the worst trust me .biggest mistake of my live.

  • herzog

    Good advice Allan. Well said.

  • victimofdht

    “buzz it and wait and see what happens with cloning…” Easier said than done, alan. What if buzzing makes you look like shit ? If buzzing or shaving worked for all us the same, no one would be getting HTs. Unfortunately, for some, the only choice is HT. It’s hardly the fix but….

  • victimofdht

    Also, what if cloning never becomes reality, at least for the near future ? What if another 10, 15 or 20 years go by and we’re still in square one ? Should someone who’s tortured by his hair loss continue to live in misery for the next 10 years ?

  • allan

    i’m going to tell you, if your so consumed with your outside appearance. like i was at 25, and your worried about your looks that much, imo your ethier good looking or your not. with hair or without hair, buzz short and lovvvvve yourself. don’t be so hard on yourself. and carve your head up like me.

  • tk

    I gotta say, I think allan is right. Trust the guy, he speaks from experience. HTs could damage the scalp and make the newest therapies not as effective as they would be on a virgin scalp.

    Just tell yourself that you HAVE hair, it’s just really, really, really short! All those therapies will do is make them longer, really. They are nothing but fancy cell based hair extensions.

    Right guys?

  • victimofdht

    Yeah, I was good looking with hair. Thats why I cant imagine myself bald and started getting HTs the minute I noticed a barely noticeable recession in the temples. Too bad for me I’m losing the transplanted hairs. Shaving’s not an option. I’m more desperate than any of you here I think.

  • julian

    That interview is really exciting. Let´s hope the efficacy is proved as well as the safety. Efficacy is the major concern and its results will be available much sooner, by the middle of next year. If it goes well we will have a real solution to this problem. It´s gonna be unbelievable!! Fingers always crossed!!

  • tk

    To say that efficacy is a major concern is quite an understatement. Officially, they haven’t grown a single hair on any human being now. So they are actually behind ARI at this point.

    Perhaps they have grown hair in humans in secret though, but we’ll never know that.

  • allan

    aderans has a video on there site now that was done in june of 2010. for them to put it up now after 14 month’s of more phase 2 data can’t be a bad thing.

  • victimofdht

    God damn it, when is the day when we put an end to this nightmare is going to come? It’s been a long hard wait.

  • Tom

    Allan,

    I’m a little confused why aderans would put up a video from 2010? Is that good or bad?, why wouldn’t they put up something more current? Also, anyone know when aderans phase II is supposed to end in 2012?

    ZZ’s link above with interview with Replicel was very encouraging. He was straightforward with timeline. It seems like it could possibly be less than 3 1/2 years if the FDA let’s them commercialize after phase 2, but the FDA will no doubt kill that dream.

  • julian

    What let me more excited about the interview was that they´ll have the efficacy measured by the middle of the next year so we´ll know if it works. Knowing that will be really reassuring for us, even having to wait a little more. The safety shouldn´t be an issue as they aren´t even worried about it because it can´t be more harmful than a blood transfusion. So, if the efficacy is proved we´re saved!! we´ll just have to count some days, and save some money. Again, and always!! Fingers crossed!!!

  • tk

    “Fingers crossed!!!”

    You’ll wind up with a huge cramp before long. Been there.

  • julian

    @tk… what is your problem man? you have an issue and it´s not only hairloss.

  • JJ kay

    i think he have a lot of problems… and a crystal ball

  • Virgo

    Wasn’t there a guy on here who was trying to create Histogen’s HSC at his work/home and then try it on himself? What happened to him… did he ever give it a try? Did he ever mention his results?

  • tk

    julian,

    Take it easy, just fooling with you.

    Research takes a lot of time. If we have something in the next five years, then we will be VERY lucky! (Capital letters used to emphasize some opinion based on nothing but the experience of broken promises and blown combovers.) More likely, it will be ten years before any of us will benefit from the more novel therapies such as ARI, HSC and Folica.

    The good news is, some HTs now have the potential to regenerate some various degrees of donor hair. (Acell, some lunatic in Holland, etc…) I’d be willing to bet that these therapies will be out best shot for the next ten years. They are in themselves pretty close to a cure for many people, mostly if meds work for you.

    Looking high up at the moon is fine and dandy, especially this time of the year, but don’t forget to look down before you cross the street.

    See, the great thing about getting older is that our failures come across as wisdom. So I guess you guys can all call me Confucius.

  • JJK

    confucius… about the lunatic guy in holland… i don´t believe in him

  • tk

    @Virgo,
    The guy who tried HSC at home actually sent us a pic last month. Judge his results by yourself:
    http://www.fotothing.com/photos/9c5/9c5700882eb4b830a6254f90e432da68.jpg
    Unfortunately, he died swallowing a hairball. The tragedy!

  • Virgo

    Thanks tk… it’s a shame about his fatality.

  • hairpaper

    Has anyone ever read of work involving beta-catenin? Of course you can argue that every single protein therapy in trials involves activating beta-catenin via Wnt but anything about direct application of beta-catenin? There were reports of sustained b-catenin and tumors in mice but those were mice with constant expression of the protein.

  • julian

    @tk, thanks god it´s just your opinion.

  • Poster

    So many patents floating around with regard to Follica.

    Here are some patents not in Follica’s name, but with affiliated researchers. hairpaper can likely provide greater insight into these:

    http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100120768

    http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110152746

    http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110092421

  • aleluia

    Woww… a kit for hair growing!!
    or follica getting closer or they´re completle desperate

  • julian

    Why this many patents? it´s curious.

  • hairpaper

    Nothing out of the ordinary. If you remember the original work Cots. did with wounding in mice these patents are from follow up experiments using that wounding model.

    It’s not uncommon that a company is founded off of research conducted in large, well funded laboratory. In the case of Cots. lab, he only has a few employees and a very narrow focus. So it’s not that he’s in competition with Follica or that Follica is funding this work. Certainly they (follica) would look over this work and decide if they want to license any of the technology.

    As far as the content I have not looked in fine detail but as I mentioned this is a continuation of earlier work. Wound mice, test a growth factor for a boost in hair follicle production. Wound mice, test a small molecule inhibitor for hair follicle production, etc. etc.

    FGF, EGFR inhibitors. Eda-A1 is a little off the beaten path but these are patents, the more they throw in the better. I mean, 190 claims?? Sheesh, we had 150 claims in my last patent and the patent attorneys said that has been a record for them.

    I think the only question for anyone participating on these types of threads is – how well does the dermabrasion+treatment model work even at its worst? If the principle is really based on observations from the 1950s is it that simple to make a slight wound and see a boost in hair follicles with a recombinant protein? That’s all I’d like to know. It doesn’t matter if it works well, yet, just if the basic principle is really sound and translates from mice to human. If the method shows any sign reproducibility in human, then you have a screening platform, and that opens up possibilities for just about any company (and individual) that’s interested to get involved. It may be difficult for Follica to protect their intellectual property.

  • Metsie

    Hairpaper, whats the deal with patent pending ? Would a product be released and secure with patent pending, or would it be a waiting period until the patent is official ?

  • Artista

    @ Metsie, First of all hi there my friend..the first thought that came to my head after reading your question is that in the past we have all seen the many products out on the market with the term “patent pending” attached. I dont see how this would be any different. Regardless as to what the product is .

  • hairpaper

    I’ve fortunately never had to deal with the issue of crossing someone’s patent (blatantly crossing a patent, I should say). It means the patent will go through a review process which could take years and then be assigned a patent # from the USPTO, at that point the patent is “enabled.”

    Technically, someone could try to produce the same technology that exists in a pending patent but likely investors would run away. Investors want to know their money is getting spent on R&D, and won’t be dished out in future legal battles (even if the company doing the ‘stealing’ is confident they can come out with a net gain). It’s all around bad business.

    I should say I made the comment on Follica because someone could tweak the method rather easily and claim they have a more efficient method or chose to use a protein that is not obvious. If a competitor tests a protein only produced in the retina, and that protein suddenly does a phenomenal job for hair follicles then…..ouch for a company like Follica.

    The problem with wounding and hair growth is that it’s been observed for decades. It comes out pretty weak if Cots. work is the foundation for a company and he keeps referring to work done in the 1950s. So the ‘not obvious’ part of the invention will be the addition of growth factors and/or small molecule drugs, for which you’ll likely see more patents in the future.

    Just like the reports you’ve read on Google and Apple buying up patents, a university like UPenn and a company like Follica would be well advised to take the shotgun approach to patenting. If their names are on everything even remotely related to a simple two step method for wounding and hair follicle formation,it can only help.

  • lurker

    Ryan,

    Any way you could try to touch base with follica and see how things are going? Any info would help.

  • Virgo

    That would be nice lurker…

  • Poster

    Hey Ryan! Get at it! Get us some info.

  • rev

    It’s time Follica met with some enhanced interrogation.

  • VidalSassoon

    So we wont have any new ACTUAL information for at least 6 months? I find this site good to come to but it is mostly just opinions. Follica,Histogen,Replicel wont have any new updates be it good or bad until mid 2012?

  • Artista

    Welcome Vidal, we try to keep it civil and up to date here. At some point there will be uplifting news to read. Patience and optimistic resilience will get us to that point.

  • Strangerbaldguy

    Hi guys…
    i´m not so good with english and i´ve received this link but i don´t understand clearly what they are saying… anyone can say what they are talking about?

    http://www.replicel.com/september-11th-episode-of-the-bald-truth-featuring-replicel-life-sciences/

  • C

    Yes, it says ‘shave your head and move on’ – no one really cares about hair.

  • if nobody cares about hair… wtf are u doin here

  • Metsie

    Hey spyder,I mean C, welcome back. Now can somebody block him again ?

  • allan

    you know what i find funny, rassman has nothing this week on his blog about the ishrs meeting , that had up dates about future treatments, aderans is just about done with phase 2 data , at this time they know how things are going, hairtransplant doctors are some of the biggest scum bags out there. i bet you if he heard bad news , that would be on his bullshit blog the next day.

  • allan

    just saw garys photos on hairsite, oh my god, great plug work in the front ,keep up the good work.

  • Iwantsomehair

    @allan. Check out his site now! You are a bitch for calling him out. He is an honest man that is trying to help we, bald men, out. Screw you.

  • jordan

    Hi guys, haven’t checked in for a while! Any news?

  • allan

    iwantsomehair, like i said the hairtransplant doc’s that i had dealings with were all evil, filled my head full of wipe scars from ear to ear, and could care less, it;s just pure greed and evil. almost 20 years of this now, this guy doesn’t care about you. how could this guy use those large grafts , in 2011, it’s not 1993, your one of two things ,young or dumb or both, he’d love you, go fuck yourself!!

  • Artista

    @ allan and everyone else ..There is NO NEED for that type of commenting. Especially if you want to continue posting here.

  • julian

    For one thing I totally agree with Allan, HT sucks!!! it sucks even more than baldness itself!! There should be a solution by these days no matter how costly it was. HTs are costly but are no worth what they deliver, in my opinion. They only make you less bald, they’re not a solution.

  • Hierro

    Hey good people , can someone pleasee tell that they are getting closer :( at least lie to me , im about to be 28 come on , i been reading this since i was 26 i think? i feel like a loser but ever since i started reading it feels like we are back to point 0 , to everyone here posting when do you think there gonna be an actual solution? oh and it would be nice if we start on a new thread scrolling down on my i phone takes forever :( .Thats all i want for xmas …HAIR

  • tk

    For sure there won’t be anything out on the market before 2014. This is the most optimistic scenario at this point, according to both Histogen and ARI.

    So that makes for a 3 year waiting time, if everything goes well.

    I mean, it’s fantastic to be able to come here and read the latest news about all this stuff, but spending time here won’t make it happen sooner.

    I say focus on making money in the meantime. One grand per injection for HSC won’t be cheap, so better be ready. Plus, you’ll have to travel to Asia if you want to get the procedure as fast as possible. Plane tickets aren’t free.

  • julian

    @tk, you totally disregard Follica’s position? I mean, since they didn’t reveal their schedule they COULD be more advanced and COULD come to market sooner than 3 years from now. I’m just saying COULD… I’m not counting on that, but there is hope. We’ll just know when, and IF, they talk.

  • tk

    @julian,
    There is no proof now that neither Follica nor Replicel can grow hair in humans. Not saying they can’t, but there is no sign that they can either. So I don’t count them in my estimate.

    I don’t need hope, I need hair.

  • A

    don´t worry so much about time
    first we need to have something that works

  • A

    Yeah time is good.

  • hairpaper

    So for those who have gone through hair transplant procedures, and correct me if I’m wrong, the procedure is broken up into three portions, correct?
    1. Donor region excised
    2. hair follicles surgically removed
    3. follicles transplanted into surgical area.

    Is that right? I am not trying to stir things up and don’t care to have a transplant. I’m curious about step #3 – the part where the hair follicle is transplanted.
    Basically, the doctor says “here’s a good spot” and makes the incision and inserts the follicle or does it depend on the area (e.g. frontal scalp can withstand the procedure better than hind scalp. Like, can lots of incisions be made just about anywhere for the hair transplant?
    Thanks in advance.

  • victimofdht

    Hierro, you say you’ve been reading “this” for the past two years. Well, I’ve been reading a cure or a treatment for baldness will be available in the next 5-10 years since the early 90s. So, that was 20 years ago. Some people think we’ll have something by 2014. But we keep reading conflicting stuff that makes you think all we have are empty promises. Even Histogen -our best hope- does NOT seem to be a sure thing by any means.
    This is like a terrifying nightmare that doesn’t want to end.
    Unfortunately, up until this moment we still have NOTHING to make us believe that 2014 is the year.
    All we have might be nothing more than mirage.
    I know this is sickening but it’s REALITY.
    I still hope that I’m wrong though. I am probably more desperate than most of you to finally have this fucking nightmare come to an end.

    If anyone has any good news that can give us some hope please post it.

  • victimofdht

    Hairpaper, yes. you can put as many hairs as you want -if available- in the recipient area.

  • hairpaper

    victimofdht – thank you.
    The reason I ask, and keeping in line with the threads original topic, is a standard hair transplant is sort of relevant to the Follica tech.
    When you make an incision, you’re essentially wounding a small defined spot. So if you only partially complete the last step in a hair transplant, you’ve completed the first part of the Follica tech. Then it’s a matter of adding the recombinant protein or drug of interest.

    Though I would be a little surprised if anyone on this thread just happened to be close friends with a HT doctor, I’m kind of surprised reports of HT doctors (or really concerned medical doctors (e.g. dermatologists)) testing the Cots findings in humans haven’t surfaced. Not necessarily the exact method, but performing a method similar to what was published in Nature. Clinical researchers perform much more complex procedures on a regular basis. A one inch patch of scalp to reproduce such a novel finding?

  • Wotever

    This isn’t brand new news, but as far as I can see it hasn’t been posted here. According to http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=96601, somebody got the following info recently in an email from Gail Naughton of Histogen:

    “Shortly after our most recent trip to Singapore at the end of August we decided to pull our filing and submit an IND elsewhere in Asia. Part of our concern was that a large percentage of potential participants were using Minoxidil and/or Propecia, both of which disaqualify them as patients. A minimum 6 mos wash out is required. Our plan is to conduct part of our Phase 3 trial in Singapore and give the clinicians there adequate notice before beginning it to select appropriate participants and have them stop treatment with the other hair growth drugs.

    As I write this my clinical director and I are on our way to Alaska for the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery annual meeting where our two year follow up hair study and some new applications for our product will be presented by both Dr. Craig Ziering and Dr. Neil Sadick. Our IND is under review in Asia and we are finalizing our regulatory strategy for North America. We will send out a formal statement shortly and remain excited by the level of interest in HSC from both clinicians and patients.”

  • ghandi

    people are always swinging between optimism and all out pessimism. Just stay objective. All dates given are tenuous. Take what info we can get for what it is. No one knows how long this is going to take. Just read the data and be thankful for any progress that’s made.

  • Gabriel

    Thats a good point ghandi. We can only hope.
    But we cant let hair takeover ourlives. It is just one part of it. No body can hurt u if u dont let them to. Stay confident and plan for future. If something comesup in the meantime, then thats good :)

  • victimofdht

    “but we can’t let hair take over our lives…” Easier said than done. If it were that simple no one would be buying Minox, Fin…and we wouldn’t be spending billions on shit that don’t work. We also wouldn’t spend $10’s of thousands on HTs. We wouldn’t be depressed and suffering from all sorts of emotional/psychological problems -caused by hair loss- and all sorts of self esteem and confidence problems. Heck, we wouldn’t be here (on this site) checking every day to see if a miracle treatment is out…. If it were that simple we just wouldn’t give a crap about treating our hair loss and it wouldn’t matter if a treatment was ever found or not.

    Yeah yeah, I know what you guys are going to say, we care but we can’t let it take over our lives. Well,….

  • C

    Shave it and move on, life’s too short.

  • tk

    Guys, did you read the post on hlh? It’s pretty bad news.

    Looks like HSC is currently offered at two clinics (at least) in Japan, and from the guy’s comments (so had it performed twice), it didn’t do ziltch.

    The fact that they cancelled the Singapore trial (because the guys were using minox and fin? Don’t believe it) is also a bad sign.

    I have much reduced expectations from HSC at this point. It’s too early to say, but in my mind they have failed to produce results that live up to the hype.

    That’s what happens when you want to find investor money I guess.

    What’s next? Replicel?

  • hairpaper

    I personally think what’s next is exactly what you’ve found out (if the information is accurate) regarding some tests in japan clinics. There are a few technologies out there, and probably a few other technologies based on the literature (such as transient beta-catenin). “what’s next” could be sit and wait and post on message boards for two years or simply get a clinic to perform the tests. The example I gave earlier the other day was confirming whether or not the Follica tech fundamentally works.
    Forget intellectual property infringement, is the method published in Nature reproducible in patients in a small, defined area?
    I am busy with my own research and have never even spoken or even emailed a hair transplant surgeon, but they are the logical individuals to conduct a test in a safe and controlled manner.

  • julian

    Follica could give us at least a hint of what’s going on. I just would like to be sure that their invention works in humans (in mouses we know that it did) and that’s all. I’m sure they know it already. If it doesn’t, forget it. So, some vague hint wouldn’t hurt, I guess.

    A question: will we know when – if, off course – they start the process in the FDA? or it can be hidden from the public? I mean, it has to be done publicly or it can be published when it is finished if the company prefers that way?

  • tk

    @julian,
    Dr Wu explicitely said that he would not reveal anything about the development of Follica, because he doesn’t want to create this emotional roller coaster in people’s minds. Just look at us sorry blokes and you’ll see why.

    But I think they’re just hiding away the cure so that they can reap all the benefits to themselves. (Read: getting more fine babes.) Wouldn’t you do the same thing too?

  • julian

    I think becoming one of the richest motherfkrs on Earth, winning a Nobel prize and making history would pretty much make a difference, don’t you think too? no need to be so selfish, I suppose, if I really got what you meant, @tk.

  • KKwilliams

    @TK comment.

    I highly doubt that any clinics have patients openly using the hsc treatment as its still in trials. IT makes ABSOLUTELY 0 sense. Especially since if the results are producing ziltch as the supposed patients are claiming all funding to histogen would cease.

    If anything it sounds like more guys just trying to freak people out on the nutjob site hlh

  • lurker

    I really think I’m starting to thinking I’m wasting time hoping on something that’s not going to happen anytime soon. Even if something, a little temporary improvement, on what’s legally available in the US for hair treatment, I’d be a happy camper.

    Does anyone know if RU is being tested or not? I’m not taking anything until it gets through the clinical trials. Even afterwards, some of this shit is just not safe.

  • Ryan

    Nothing seems to be happening anywhere at the moment, and I can’t seem to find out if Histogen had anything interesting to say at that meeting, quite depressing waiting for information, if nothing else the Follica team must be close to being the worlds best at Angry Birds.

  • Gabriel

    @victimofdht

    I can understand the frustration it brings out. But seriously what can we do? It is just a natural thing that happend. If people are differential to us b’coz we dont have hair, then it is ther problem. There is nothing we can do. But wait for some solution. In the meantime, dont allow it to bother. We need to focus on our lives. Get better at wat we do. Cheers!!

  • tk

    @KK,
    If you go on the websites mentionned in the post, you can clearly see mentions of HSC being offered as a treatment option. You’re right that we must be careful, but the fact that the treatment is offered in two clinics is quite telling. Also, one of the clinics is in Miyagi, and area that was affected by the tsunami. Histogen did say that the tsunami had affected their plans, so this is likely not a coincidence.

    But we don’t know if HSC works or not just from one post. Maybe, as I have always believed, it will mostly work as a hair booster, growing hair in thin areas, as opposed to growing hair out of bald areas. In that case it can still be a very interesting treatment option for people in early stages, and to boost the donor area, which becomes thinner as we age. (No, the donor is NOT permanent, stop that nonsense!)

    We’ll just wait for some official Histogen comment at this point.

  • A

    Histogen also said that the only asian country where they wont release their product early was JAPAN, so do not be stressed with claims that a product that ATTEMPTS to RIP-OFF histogen has failed.
    Wait until a press release from Histogen says WE FAILED before we run around with doom and gloom.

  • hairpaper

    Getting back to Follica. Has anyone here had a HT or has a good relationship with a HT doctor? It is very surprising that a well funded HT clinic has not tried to carry over the work from the Cots. Nature paper to a patient.

    Really, that’s the only way to get a short term answer on the technology. It wouldn’t necessarily questions about efficiency, but it’s a start. Follica may be great an they may go bankrupt, they are under no obligation to make any of their results public.

  • victimofdht

    Gabriel, I wouldn’t give a damn if it were only about people being differential to me -because of my hair loss. That would be the least of my worries. You know it’s about us (people with hair loss) NOT being able to accept it or live with it, especially for some of us who are more affected (psychologically) by this curse than the average sufferer.

  • julian

    Well said, @victim. The problem is that we simply can’t accept this condition. It’s good to have hair, it just is! we feel better, much better, having it. And yes, for some of us it is worse, terrible! @hairpaper, Follica’s tech has absolutely nothing to do with HT. And, they’re already working on it. And, it’s not only about a disruption in the skin, as you know. It’s much more complex than this, certainly. If it were that easy, they would already be selling their product and making lots of money. The only ones that can give this answer are they, you know that. And, HT doctors are already making lots of money, and giving almost nothing in exchange, so it isn’t surprising at all that they haven’t tested anything else.

  • Ryan

    I checked the status for Follica’s clinical trial in Europe and it finally said they had completed that phase at the end of July, we don’t know if that particular trial will have much relation to the final treatment they’re pursuing so it’s nothing much to get excited about yet.

  • Metsie

    Ryan where did you find that? Europe? I thought for sure Israel. Maybe both. Who knows.

  • tk

    “Well said, @victim. The problem is that we simply can’t accept this condition. It’s good to have hair, it just is! we feel better, much better, having it. And yes, for some of us it is worse, terrible! ”

    Amen to that. People react differently for many reasons. Some are devastated, some really don’t care so much. And all those reactions are valid.

    People who trivialize hair loss and then vote for someone like Rick Perry, who obviously is an idiot who won his elections because of his hair, are just being hypocrites.

    Unfortunately, I don’t believe there is anything so close that will work well for us. Histogen is looking worse by the day, ARI still have years of research to do, and Follica is keeping mum about their work. Replicel? 10 years away at best.

    If you’re still in your twnties, you should be all fine and dandy, but for old folks like me, it’s pretty much the end of the line.

    Which sucks.

  • Tom

    Tk, I agree, I want to have hair again, I don’t want to accept it being gone

    My hair loss has completely changed my life. People look at you completely differently, it affects us SOCIALLY, career wise, and generally in life so much. MY co-workers and friends will make comments, like I don’t realize it. It’s something we will never completely get over. From the minute I wake up I have to deal with it. When people make comments about it, it just gets worse. Obviously, if I could change it I would, but people can still be very harsh. What can we do, but hope. This situation is beyond depressing, it completely changes the way you look and your personality, but we have no great options right now.

    Aderans and Replicel might be are only hope. Aderans is stalling it seems, and Replicel said at least a couple years, but can we really believe that?? They all want investors, we have to remember there main goal is to milk it as long as possible, especially if they have nothing. Why tell us?

    I don’t know, I’m 31 years old, and this all hit me a couple years ago, I take propecia, but I’m in bad shape. I wish I could just get over it, but I want hair. Maybe we should all just get crew-cuts or shave our heads. I can’t believe this has happened to me.

  • tk

    Tom,

    Trust me, I’ve been there. I started in my teens, before entering college. I was head of the class, a brilliant guy who was quite social. Huge appendice. Plenty of money in my bank account. I was engaged to a princess in a far away land whose hair was made of pure golden silk, who often rode naked on a horse, causing many highway accidents. True, amazing stuff.

    When hairloss hit me, I felt like I lost half of my brain. I went from being head of the class to being kicked out of my program, losing all my scholarships and a chance to make it to the best schools and even NASA. Yep, I was on my way to becoming a rocket scientist. (With a huge appendice, mind you.) Needless to say, the princess left me with my best friend after a threesome. That friend had the most amazing hair in the world, made of the purest platinum silk. Huge mammary glands too. (Yep, my best friend was a girl.) Now I’m stuck scouring the internet for pictures of their intense make out sessions. Trust me, it’s very painful when you finally find pictures.

    So I now dream that if someday, somehow I can get some hair back, even if it’s just on my behind, I have a chance at accomplishing the promises that life held for me. (Getting the girls back before they get too old would be a bonus too.) I asked a HT dock for an estimate, but he said that he could only cover one cheek with all of my chest hair, so it’s a no-go for me.

    I’ve somehow found comfort in surrounding myself with many things which are quite hairy, such as poms poms and cuddly stuffed animals. But poms poms without the cheerleaders just aren’t the same, and stuffed animals just aren’t made to endure the fiery love making that a frustrated balding man needs in order to be fulfilled.

    Life just isn’t the same without hair. And anyone who tells you otherwise has an interest in you not getting it back.

    Anyway, if anyone wants to talk to me about this, feel free to ask for my e-mail. (And I have some of those pictures of my ex and my former best friend too. Blurry webcam stuff, but hot enough to increase your Norwood level by at least 2.)

    Take care everyone, and let’s keep up the fight.

  • @Tom

    I have a mechanism for comments from people.
    I start to talk like so what, don’t talk like a child, don’t be a baby.
    Just play a confident man and all of them will look at you in a different light.
    Try it and you will see.
    They will be embarrassed to even talk about it and will rarely talk when you are there.

  • rev

    Zarko’s Right.
    A little in-your-face confidence works wonders with clowns that try to bring you down.

  • Shooter

    Zarko is 100% right. If you respond to someone’s comment with total confidence like you don’t even understand why it would even be a problem… they immediately feel really uncomfortable. It’s as if they just told a joke that totally flopped.

    Privately you can be bummed about it, but in public just embrace it. Works every single time.

  • hairpaper

    My earlier posting-
    Getting back to Follica. Has anyone here had a HT or has a good relationship with a HT doctor? It is very surprising that a well funded HT clinic has not tried to carry over the work from the Cots. Nature paper to a patient.

    Really, that’s the only way to get a short term answer on the technology. It wouldn’t necessarily questions about efficiency, but it’s a start. Follica may be great an they may go bankrupt, they are under no obligation to make any of their results public.

    There was a response to this message from
    julian.
    “@hairpaper, Follica’s tech has absolutely nothing to do with HT. And, they’re already working on it. And, it’s not only about a disruption in the skin, as you know. It’s much more complex than this, certainly. If it were that easy, they would already be selling their product and making lots of money.”

    First, let’s be rational. I do know a little something of working with cells, tissues, recombinant proteins and transgenes. Actually, more than a little bit but my goal is not to wear myself or others out going over resumes. The problem is, this is a thread and often words are cut out to keep the word count low, and that results in statements that seem loaded or casual.

    I’ll try again – Follica’s tech is not a hair transplant. No, Cots’ lab was not performing a HT on mice in his Nature paper. But, in common with a HT, the mice were wounded (what else would you call making slits into the scalp during a hair transplant?). The procedure in the Nature paper is not complex but if someone was to reproduce the result in a patient (to see if the method really merits pursuit) then a HT doctor’s office is the perfect setting.

    Let me spell this out. I am suggesting a small pilot test, to see if results in humans mirror those in mice. Otherwise this becomes a long list of postings that are based on psychology and not on science. And the occasional posting of “any news on replicel? any news on follica? anything?”.

    Why wait three years for news or worry about patents centered around mass producing the technology? Why not test if the method has merit in patients vs mice?

  • Halako

    stop dreamin my friends…cure is 10 years away… and i´m being optimistic

  • rev

    Be optimistic elsewhere.

  • julian

    @hairpaper, Follica have been working on it for a while, as you know. So, it won’t take long (since they seem to be advanced in their trials) until we know if it works or not. Be reasonable! you’re an intelligent guy, it’s obvious. HT doctors make money without curing baldness. It’s not in their interest and they won’t waste their time with that, never! Also, they’d start from ZERO now. Follica is advanced. They have this answer already, for sure. They only can’t tell us yet. It may be good or bad, but it seems logical that they know it now. They may be dosing the drug, may be awaiting safety tests, may be perfecting their device, may be working on protecting their invention, many things. We don’t have means to know how long it will take until we know better.

    @Halako, you come here just to say that? as if that has never been said here before.. Ow My..

    @rev, totally agreed. We don’t need this optimism here.

  • julian

    Just to get it clearer, and add something:

    @hairpaper: “Follica’s tech is not a hair transplant. No, Cots’ lab was not performing a HT on mice in his Nature paper. But, in common with a HT, the mice were wounded (what else would you call making slits into the scalp during a hair transplant?). The procedure in the Nature paper is not complex but if someone was to reproduce the result in a patient (to see if the method really merits pursuit) then a HT doctor’s office is the perfect setting.”

    well, so why wasn’t a HT surgeon that discovered, or observed, Cotsarelis’ finding? curious, isn’t it?

    Off course the method merits/merited pursuit, since it’s exactly what they did, haven’t they just been doing that: pursuing it?

  • hairpaper

    To be honest with you, one point you keep emphasizing doesn’t make reasonable sense. That is, that all HT doctors don’t want a new therapy on the market. For example, I’ve known many oncologists over the years who have fought cancer and had loved ones with cancer. Would you say that all anticancer researchers wish that cancer would ‘stick around’ for many years? I think that many clever hair transplant doctors will have good business for years to come. And if a new therapy comes to light the clever HT doctors will incorporate the method into their practice, and evolve, or perish (I love capitalism). So please, keep the conspiracy theories and negative statements for all medical doctors out of the conversation.

    I am not suggesting a doctor will beat an entire company at their own game. But, for example, if a doctor such as Markou in FL is willing to try PRP therapy, what does that say? PRP may be next to useless, but should Markou (or anyone) wait 10 years for a clinical trial? Good for him for his willingness to go outside of his comfort zone. I could see a HT doctor showing a willingness to attempt to mirror the basic (not impressive, but basic) result from Cots. paper in humans. What happens beyond that is up to the doctor.

    Some hair reagents were in use by the consumer years ahead of any positive (or negative) clinical trial data. I’m encouraging more of that. Did you wait for a 10 year clinical trial to hear that propecia or avodart worked in some patients? And did you wait another 5-10 years to wait for Merck or other companies to say “hey, there are side effects in some patients?”

    Again, I am suggesting a HT doctor be located who is willing to repeat the results of the Cots paper in humans. I’m well aware transgenic mice were used in the study. Nothing that can’t be replaced with recombinant proteins. What method or reagent do you think a HT doctor would not have access to?

  • hairpaper

    To be honest with you, one point you keep emphasizing doesn’t make reasonable sense. That is, that all HT doctors don’t want a new therapy on the market. For example, I’ve known many oncologists over the years who have fought cancer and had loved ones with cancer. Would you say that all anticancer researchers wish that cancer would ‘stick around’ for many years? I think that many clever hair transplant doctors will have good business for years to come. And if a new therapy comes to light the clever HT doctors will incorporate the method into their practice, and evolve, or perish (I love capitalism). So please, keep the conspiracy theories and negative statements for all medical doctors out of the conversation.

    I am not suggesting a doctor will beat an entire company at their own game. But, for example, if a doctor such as Markou in FL is willing to try PRP therapy, what does that say? PRP may be next to useless, but should Markou (or anyone) wait 10 years for a clinical trial? Good for him for his willingness to go outside of his comfort zone. I could see a HT doctor showing a willingness to attempt to mirror the basic (not impressive, but basic) result from Cots. paper in humans. What happens beyond that is up to the doctor.

    Some hair reagents were in use by the consumer years ahead of any positive (or negative) clinical trial data. I’m encouraging more of that. Did you wait for a 10 year clinical trial to hear that propecia or avodart worked in some patients? And did you wait another 5-10 years to wait for Merck or other companies to say “hey, there are side effects in some patients?”

    Again, I am suggesting a HT doctor be located who is willing to repeat the results of the Cots paper in humans. I’m well aware transgenic mice were used in the study. Nothing that can’t be replaced with recombinant proteins. What method or reagent do you think a HT doctor would not have access to? And your question about doctors stumbling across the Follica result – it’s wounding combined with growth factors. Cots. has been doing this for decades with the use with the use of transgenic mice and only just “stumbled” across the result a few years ago, to the surprise of many of his peers. STOP with the conspiracy theories!

  • tk

    I don’t think we necessarily need a cure to be satisfied, just some more effective treatments would be amazing. HSC and ARI don’t look like cures as much as treatments to thicken existing hair. That counts for something. Replicel is way too early to tell.

    The only thing that could be a cure is Follica, but it’s a wild card at the moment. Only them know how well the therapy works, if at all, and it’s nonsense trying to speculate either way with the limited information that we have.

    10 years away for a real cure, i.e one that could take a NW 6 and give him a full head of hair, is indeed extremely optimistic in my view. But that doesn’t mean many of us can’t be helped by a combination of upcoming treatments such as HSC, ARI, Bitamaprost, and even the new HT techniques out there.

    Speaking of HSC, the guy who says he had the treatment done in Japan appears to be bald already. I think it’s ridiculous to think that HSC can help people who are already bald. But it could be amazing for thinning hair. We just don’t know yet. If it does work to some extent I will probably try going to Japan to get it done on my donor area, before it gets too thin.

  • tk

    @hairpaper,
    No offense, but I think it’s far fetched to try to convince a HT doc to spend his time trying to reproduce what Follica has been trying to achieve for years now, with the best scientists out there in their team. If that type of treatment has a chance of working, they are surely in the best position to make it work. So I’m siding with Julian here.

    But I am in the process of trying to convince a HT Doc in Canada to test some procedure that has a lot of buzz now. I’ll let you know if anything comes out of it, but I’d rather not say a thing now, because the issue appears to be very emotional for many people here.

  • Jah

    Aderans Research Draws National Attention

    “We’re getting closer and closer to solving the puzzle of cellular hair regeneration and are pleased to be able to
    share our findings and thoughts with prominent members of the scientific and medical communities,” Washenik
    said. “These conferences are important for us because they bring together hair restoration surgeons, clinicians
    and scientific researchers to exchange insights and expand our collective knowledge of the follicular
    regeneration and restoration processes.”

    http://aderansresearch.com/pdfs/PR_09_29_11.pdf

    are they realy getting closer?

  • tk

    @Jah,
    There is some interesting info in that pdf about fibroblasts, which is what Histogen is using as well:

    “On September 27th in Atlanta, Aderans Principal Scientist Bryan Marshall, Ph.D., presented at the Georgia Life Sciences Summit 2011 “Bioscience at a Crossroads.” Marshall presented an Aderans poster entitled “Fibroblasts Derived from Human Scalp are Multipotent and Trichogenic” in the Cell Therapy & Tissue Engineering session and discussed the isolation of fibroblasts in the human adult scalp and their role in follicle production.
    “The detection of multipotent cells in this manner in the human scalp is a big step toward using cellular regeneration to address pattern hair loss,” said Kurt Stenn, MD, Vice President and Chief Scientific Officer. “We’re excited to explore ways to translate this finding into clinical applications.”

    This seems like yet another way to go at it. At least they are still being open minded. Maybe a cocktail of all these things will work. Hey, this is how the hair follicles are formed to start with.

  • julian

    I think that it was to people like @hairpaper that Cotsarelis referred when he expressed his worries that people would start using cheese graters on their heads after that CBS interview was aired. @hairpaper: “I am suggesting a HT doctor be located who is willing to repeat the results of the Cots paper in humans.” I’ll tell you what: if you firmly believe a doctor will do that, man, you’re going nuts. It’s just not their business. In fact, it would disturb their business.

    If your concern is whether it works, it has already been answered: It works! They claim it doubles the number of existing hair producing follicles! But HOW it works is up to Follica. Call them and they’ll be happy to tell you, all the details, I’m sure, or we wouldn’t live in the world of the good and willing hair transplant doctors.

  • julian

    Better yet. I suggest a HT doctor be located who calls Follica and asks them and then tells us.

  • tk

    @julian,

    Woah there! There is no proof that it doubles the number of follicles. You’re reading too much into that patent application, which may really have nothing to do with the final procedure.

    With regard to Follica, all that we know is that they gave Mickey Mouse his hair back, and that they are now working on making it work on humans. And that they are really smart.

    The rest is merely speculation.

    BTW, buy some stocks now, they are getting real cheap, you can pay for many procedures years down the road.

  • julian

    i’m not reading to much into it. I’m just saying what’s written there, these are their words, not mine. You may believe them or not, this is up to you. If it is true or not I can’t tell, off course. We’ll see in the future cause they won’t hide it forever!

  • tk

    Filing a patent doesn’t mean they said it works. If that was the case we’d all have amazing hair by now.

  • julian

    @tk, they say in there that it works, that it doubles the number of… and so on, it’s not me!!! it’s there!!!!!!!!, I just know how to read. Go there and see yourself!! I’m not telling it’s true, how many times do I have to say that? They are telling, they wrote it. If you don’t trust them, think they’re not being honest, whatever, is other thing, this is up to you. I just repeated what they wrote, for Christ sake!!!

  • julian

    It’s in the Bible that our history started with Adam and Eve, isn’t it? I don’t believe it. To me this is BS!! but it’s there, isn’t it? that they were the first humans on Earth, created by God and so on… so, same thing, you know what I mean?

  • tk

    @julian,
    I misread your last post, so my reply didn’t make much sense.

    We still have years to wait before we get an answer from Follica anyway. This really sucks.

  • julian

    Follica’s words:

    “The present disclosure provides methods and systems that increase the number of hair-producing follicles on a body surface by two-fold or more, representing a valuable treatment for subjects suffering from male- or female-pattern hair loss, pathological hair loss, or hair loss after injury.”

    @hairpaper’s words:

    “To answer your concerns – Follica has to have had something work. You can’t file for a patent unless you’ve reduced the invention to practice. The problem is how efficient is the technology.”

  • julian

    How do you know? you’re speculating, just that. You may be right! we may have to wait 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10… years, we may have to wait forever! We may die and the treatment/cure be out the next day… so many things can happen, man!! and WE don’t know shit.

  • tk

    @julian,
    Thanks for the hairpaper quote. I was just too lazy to go look that one up myself.

    The problem is also WHERE this works. I don’t need any more hair on my ass. Nature was kind for me in that regard.

  • julian

    Well, I suppose they know where hair is most needed and that this location has been their target since the beginning.

  • julian

    I hadn’t seen this comment:

    “And your question about doctors stumbling across the Follica result – “it’s wounding combined with growth factors. Cots. has been doing this for decades with the use with the use of transgenic mice and only just “stumbled” across the result a few years ago, to the surprise of many of his peers. STOP with the conspiracy theories!”

    ow gosh, you knew it all the time, you know everything!!! So it’s wounding combined with growth factors? Cotsarelis is an ass hole, isn’t he? you’re a genius, aren’t you? Why do we need Follica, Replicel, Histogen, etc… when we have the fabulous Hairpaper?!! Sorry mate, for decades??? how many? ow, so one of his peers is you, off course, such a modest guy!! Conspiracy theories??? well, the one with silly ideas around here is not me.

  • julian

    Conspiracy theory my ass!!! so a HT dumb doctor will repeat Cots. results to satisfy your curiosity??? I really wanna see that!!

  • Boston
  • tk

    @Boston,
    Thanks for the pdf. I highlighted this development earlier. It could mean big things for our grandchildren, if we have any. ;)

    Seriously, this is looking a lot like Follica, except that instead of using fibroblasts taken from baby foreskins, they could get some directly from the scalp.

    But this is way to early in the game to infer anything, other than the fact that they are working hard to find a cure.

  • curious

    Any news on Histogen’s phase 2 trials? They started this summer right?

  • Shooter

    Aderans doesn’t release their most recent data to the public. This information is probably quite old. I wouldn’t worry about it or be excited about it. They just got to a point where they felt comfortable disclosing one small portion of the research behind their procedure. Still, the fact that they have determined that human cells are trichogenic is great news.

  • hairpaper

    The fact of the matter is, I don’t know any HT doctors. I thought that at least some of the passionate individuals posting here might have a good rapport with their fav. HT doctor.

    In any case, regarding the patent. I did post (thanks for remembering) that any tech has to be reduced to practice before a patent is filed. There’s a problem there. It really doesn’t take much to file a patent and you don’t have to show the data.
    No peer review, data could be horrible at best. So yes, at 1:00PM on August 22nd 2008 there might have been ‘success’, the method has failed ever since, and for many scientists that would be sufficient to patent. There’s a reason we demand peer review for publication in the best journals – and even then retractionwatch.com keeps very busy.
    Plus the patent work could all have been done in a mouse. There’s no such thing as patents for mice and patents for humans.

    As an aside, you may think the credentials of these guys are incredible, but really not different than a lot of people in their fields of expertise. Yet biotechs fail left and right….

    Regarding the concern that the data of Follica is years in the making and impossible to reproduce. The data is based on a Nature paper, work conducted by a postdoctoral researcher, maybe a grad student and technician (that includes maintaining mice, doing antibody staining, etc. etc. etc.). The actual procedure from the paper is not complex. I would never suggest someone try anything at home, and that’s why you talk to a HT doctor. Though I can’t write an entire paper in a thread (I’ve gotten close to it) creating a small wound in a test area and monitoring response to a recombinant human Wnt is not rocket science.

    TK – if you MAY have a doctor in Canada test something that validates what I’ve mentioned. They are human beings who do care and some are bad and some are good.
    I hope you do have success coaxing him/her to test a procedure.

    Does anyone have a good rapport with a HT doctor in the US?

  • julian

    If you already think that Follica is a failure and their science doesn´t work, why testing it again in the first place? I mean, you question their work and at the same time want to try it?

    The same way, if they´re fine and moving on, MAYBE almost done, we don´t know, woudn´t it be a waste of time going back and trying to follow their path? they´d get it there first anyway, by all probabilities.

    Having so much knowledge, and finding so easy to reproduce their procedure based on the Nature paper, why haven´t you tested yourself, in yourself for example, by the way? I mean, the easiest part is making a wound, there´re many ways to do it. That wound´t be the hard part, I´m sure.

    Finally, I´m sorry but I continue thinking this idea of asking a HT doctor to reproduce Follica´s experience is really unpractical.

  • tk

    @hairpaper,
    I want to get a Dr in Canada to test the “Voldermort” procedure – the one that we cannot name here. Since the procedure will be licensed next year, I was thinking to convince him to go there and test it. He’s a reliable guy with a good track record as a HT doc.

    I doubt getting him to test the Follica method would yield any results, but if he is open to my first idea, then I will let him know later. If that happens, I will let you know, because I don’t know much about the actual procedure. So we’ll see, it might work.

    @julian,
    I tend to agree with you – from experience – that hairpaper’s idea won’t work, but I’ll try nonetheless.

    Guys, when all of this is over, I’m paying all of you guys a beer. (Maybe not the plane tickets though.)

    Oh, I told you guys to buys stocks. Hope you profited from the tip.

  • Z79
  • rev

    I bet it’s a patent for sandpaper… 80 grit.

  • Lowlow

    Is this good news/progress or just more of the same Follica mystery? We could do with some more hope for the short term….

  • tk

    @rev,
    Don’t underestimate Follica. I hear they’re actually planning on using sandblasters (the ones that were abandonned by the jeans industry).

    Seriously, the patent’s description is looking really interesting. Looks like they also want to use this technique to strengthen existing hairs, on top of creating new ones. So that peach fuzz you’re been hanging on to because of all that stuff you put on your bald pate might turn up to be useful after all.

    But I think it,s best to just forget Follica altogether. They’ll be ready when they’ll be ready. Could be a year, could be ten.

  • julian

    Guys, you know I tend to be optimistic, with Follica in special. I know it’s useless but I prefer hoping the best as long as there’s no bad news, and we haven’t had so good, but not that bad as well yet. All we have been seeing are signs that they’ve been moving on. I believe that, if they are more or less within schedule, it won’t take much long before we have some news. It’s just my opinion, it means nothing off course. I won’t throw a number but I guess they’re nearer the One year mark than the 10 year mark, @tk. It all depends on what they’ve got now, which we don’t know.

    I’m also looking forward to drink those beers with you guys very soon!!!

  • tk

    @julian,
    I really can’t believe they are nearer 1 yr than 10 yr. I think this will take much longer than we believe. I would share your optimism if I hadn’t been burned so many times.

    These days I am concerned that they may actually be required FDA approval. I know they originally said it doesn’t apply to their procedure, but I’m getting concerned about it now. Any news on that front?

  • Z79
  • tk

    I just scanned through the document really fast. It’s looking really good, certainly after the disappointments of the last patents.

    So they are still going for dermabrasion (possibly with a laser), and th eapplication of some gel with lithium. Great stuff. We shall soon be hairy again.

    Julian, you are right to be optimistic. I say by Christmas, we should all have a full head of hair.

    Right guys?

  • Z79

    I interpret the patent as removal of epedermis (for example dermabrasion, laser or any other method) and removal of dermis in a pattern of tiny holes (less than 1mm in diameter, up to 4 mm in depth, with a laser, punch biopsy needle, microneedle and so on) followed by applying a lithium compound (eg Lithium gluconate, lithium chloride).

  • OK Hairpaper,

    now is the time to prove your knowledge and scientifically explain this patent :)

  • Aleluia

    thank u z79… to me it seems pretty good… follica is going on this way (dermabrasion) since their begining

  • julian

    I’ve been telling you guys, I put my cards on this guys and won’t take them! Have a nice weekend all of you!!!

  • Jacob
  • Joe Price

    People, it’s just not the era for the cure, acceptance is the answer to all your problems, just try it !!

  • Virgo

    @Joe Price

    I fear you may be right but it’s talk like that, that makes me for lack of better words… go to a very, very dark place. I honestly can’t handle the idea of hair regeneration not happening SOON. My hair problems are killing me…. GOD – please! Let there be something SOON!

  • Artista

    At times, it is amazing to me that so many people here feel they have unequivocal
    intuitive KNOWLEDGE to declare that there wont be any treatment available anytime soon. This ‘knowledge’ is based upon what? No need to asnswer a rhetorical question of course.

  • tk

    Acceptance is very passive, and for most people leads to self delusion.

    I am nonetheless a firm believer in compensation. Much more active, and works much better for the wallet and life achievements in general.

    And of course a cure is coming. There’s tons of research being made. It’s really only a matter of time and money. Take a look at Histogen: it,s friggin’ expensive! 2000$ for a series of two treatments that only cover a 9 cm diameter? If you want to boost all the hair on your head, that’s close to 10000$. And who knows how many times you’ll need to have it performed.

    Follica will be cheap though, if it works.

  • victimofdht

    Joe Price, do you know the unknown ? I’m not optimistic about a cure or a treatment any time soon either but I wouldn’t say it isn’t the era for a cure because no one really knows. It could come tomorrow or it could be another 50 years.

  • Ryan

    I had to laugh when I saw this recently, it’s an article from 2007 and Dr Cotsarelis is quoted at the end saying “Cotsarelis says the for-profit venture is now only doing preclinical experiments, but if all goes perfectly, there could be a product on the market in two to three years”.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=hair-follicles-regenerate

  • Kazemiro

    @ryan: but after this, he said that maybe in a decade to launch this product

  • Ryan

    Kazemiro, I’m not suggesting that Follica will be ready with anything anytime soon I just found it amusing how confident they seemed at the time, I also don’t believe he ever said it would take a decade to launch either, there’s usually two interviews with him that are used when people try to claim that, one of them is from an article done in 2001 when he mentioned hair multiplication being available within the decade or so, and the other is from last year when the university of penn released the information about their findings that bald men were lacking progenitor cells, and when he was interviewed he said in the next decade they might have a topical treatment that activates them. That was nothing to do with Follica though.

  • julian

    “THERE COULD BE…”, “MIGHT”… “IF” all go perfectly… We never know for sure. About the wise guy who accepts it so well, what the Fk is he doing here though? @Ryan, thanks for the accuracy. I wonder why so many people doesn’t care for it. That’s why there’s so much misinformation everywhere!!

  • KKwilliams

    OFF TOPIC QUESTION but.

    I have asked this before but never seem to get a answer. Does anyone know if having laser hair removal on the ht recipient area would cause the skin afterwards to show mini scarring or skin discoloration?

    I had work done a few years ago. I would just like to have laser hair removal to soften up the temple points and make it a bit rounder at the corner of 1 side. the entire area I am thinking about doing is only about 1.5cm squared. I just dont want to pay for something that may end up making me worse off.

    any ideas

  • tk

    @KK
    Why don’t you just have some extra grafts to soften the angle there? They can also use finer hair to make it more realistic. I think it would be far less risky.

  • Tom

    I noticed above you guys were talking about Follica, did they announce anything new? Have any of the other big guys – aderans, hsc said anything? The replicel news sounds great, but I guess we got at least a couple of years wait with them. I just want to hear some new info already.

  • tk

    @Tom,
    There is a new Follica patent as of Oct 6. The link is on this page. Looks promising I think.
    But no direct news from the company management. They’re rather quiet, but choice according to Dr Wu.

  • Shooter

    In the new Follica patent, it appears that the process has already worked to some extent and now they are trying to refine the process. If my understanding is correct, that’s great news.

  • Ryan

    Shooter, that’s the method they’ve been testing in Europe isn’t it? so they’ve already completed phase II of the trials.

  • tk

    I thought Follica didn’t need FDA approval, and that they didn’t have specific phases in their trials.

    Does anybody know more about this?

  • Shooter

    I was specifically referring to this excerpt. Does it mean what I think it means?

    “[0023] Integumental disruption in varying degrees for the purpose of reorganizing existing hair structures or for producing new hair follicles is known. Some subjects respond well to a particular treatment regimen, while others, inexplicably, do not. An additional subset of subjects cannot be successfully treated using any known modality, and therefore remain in need of more hair-producing follicles, follicles that produce thicker hairs, or both. The present disclosure pertains to methods, systems, and kits that are used during the course of invoking multiple treatment modalities in order to maximize patient response to physical injury of the skin for the purpose of inducing follicular neogenesis, reorganizing existing hair structures, dispersing hair-producing components, altering cell-to-cell interactions that are relevant to the growth of hair, and other useful ends.”

  • tk

    @Shooter
    Thanks for the research.

    Looks like it’s hit or miss. It works in certain patients, and not at all in others. Seems like Gho’s HM in 1999 all over again.

    Guess it won’t work on me then.

  • Artista

    Just something for all to read during this slow period~keep the faith brothers

    “About RepliCel Life Sciences”
    The Company has developed RepliCel™, a natural hair cell replication technology that has the potential to become the world’s first, minimally invasive solution for androgenetic alopecia (pattern baldness) and general hair loss in men and women. RepliCel™ is based on autologous cell implantation technology that replicates a patient’s hair cells from their own healthy hair follicles and, when reintroduced into areas of hair loss, the Company hopes to initiate natural hair regeneration. Patents for the technology have been issued by the European Union and Australia and are pending in other major international jurisdictions. The RepliCel™ procedure has been developed over the past nine years by the Company’s recognized research scientists and medical experts – specialists in the fields of hair growth, hair biology and dermatology. Additional information on RepliCel is available at http://www.replicel.com.

  • Ryan

    tk, I thought they were referring to current treatments when they said

    “Some subjects respond well to a particular treatment regimen, while others, inexplicably, do not. An additional subset of subjects cannot be successfully treated using any known modality,”

    I don’t think they were saying Follica only works hit and miss, I think they were saying Follica is the solution to that problem.

    Or have I read it wrong?

  • ZZ

    Ryan, It sounds to me like they are referring to something other than minoxidil, propecia, etc b/c they say that the present disclosure is designed to “maximize patient response to physical injury of the skin for the purpose of inducing follicular neogenesis”. So it does look like they have had varying degrees of response and now they feel like they might have something that maximizes or maybe makes the response more consistent. I take this as a big plus!

  • ZZ
  • Shooter

    Wonder if enough time has elapsed for Ryan to get another interview with Dr. Ju at Follica…

    Interesting about Replicel, although 20% doesn’t seem “great” to me unless the treatment is compoundable.

  • RoadRunner

    Don’t forget this is only phase 1 which is done for safety, let’s hope they get 20% and can improve upon that in phase 2. If the results are cumulative it ‘could’ turn into a cure!

  • SB

    Follica is D.O.N.E. …… LOL!

    My prediction: It is indeed another failure … just give it a little more time.

  • rev

    … and your prediction is worth anything because…?

  • ZZ

    I agree that the characterization of a 20% increase as “extremely successful” is underwhelming. 50% sounds much more exciting but I guess that all depends on how much hair you still have prior to treatment and whether the effects are compoundable. Even though this was only in mice, I thought one of the most positive revelations was that “100% of the time, they increased hair growth and density by 50%”. In their patent, they state that they did not get this same result when they tested with other cells (i.e. dermal papillae…Aderans). David Hall repeated this “100% of the time” fact twice in the interview so I assume this is the source of their confidence. I guess we’ll see what happens in 5 1/2 months.

    Also, to me, Follica sounds like they are closing in on something. Relatively speaking, they seem to have filed a quite a few patents in the last 2 years that seem to indicate progress. I believe a previous patent described a doubling of the number of follicles and the most recent patent seems to indicate that they may have a solution to getting a more consistent response.

  • tk

    @Ryan,
    I think you’re right, they are talking about minox and propecia.

    The Replicell interview sounds very encouraging. If they can have 50% increase in density in humans as they had in animals, it would be spectacular. And if the treatments are compoundable, then you are talking about a cure for people with thin hair. If you’re already bald, then tough luck.

    The great thing is that the end in near guys. 5 years I say, 5 years. ;)

  • McJ

    Ryan has left Xconomy as far as I’m aware so any new updates from him aren’t likely. Bob Buderi… any updates? Pretty please.

  • julian

    If Replicel is able to repeat their results – 50% increase in everyone – in humans scalps we’re officially saved and in a few years, you’ll have to go to a museum or look for pictures to see how a bald man looks like!!

    Hurry up, Follica!! they’re coming!!!

  • julian

    If it was a horse race, I’d put my bet this way:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FOLLICA

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>REPLICEL

    >>>>>>>HISTOGEN

    >>>>>>>ADERANS

  • Metsie

    >>BOSLEY

  • tk

    @julian,
    A museum? A baldy next to a Picasso?

    I think it’s something they will probably keep for Halloween night just to scare the kids out! “Booh! If it wasn’t for Replicel you’d wind up like that too!”

    Hopefuly I won’t wind up one of the last soldiers dying on the battlefield.

  • Shooter

    No “new” news, per se, but Aderans released a few financial documents last week and it appears as if they’re still aiming for an early 2014 release date. By 2012 they should have a pretty good idea of how effective the other 6 protocols have been.

  • ib

    I fell ReplCcel has the best chance at success, there science seems rock solid, we will know if it works around 4-1-12.

    This is going to start a revolution, if someone came come up with something that works it will change alot of people worlds, man i means so much to so many. its also worth tens of Billions, so theres good reasons for a lot of attention in the science world.

  • Shooter

    Another useless update from Aderans. I can’t stand updates like these… is it good? Bad?

    http://www.aderansresearch.com/pdfs/PR_10_20_11.pdf

  • froggy

    Shooter,

    Like you I don’t know if it’s good or bad.

    But at least it shows that things are going in the right direction and that the first results are good otherwise they would stop. Specialy if you think about the recent posts about the millions that aderans invest in the commercialisation.

    Did you notice that every time a company make an announcement one or two others do the same thing? Here: Replicel on October 18th and Aderans on October 20th.

    I think this means that they know from there own research that the solution is near. So they watch each other very closely. They seems to be nervous.
    Who will be the first so the more attractive for investors?
    Remember one thing in this kind of technology for the same efficacity the winner (here the first on the market) TAKE EVERYTHING (BILLIONS OF DOLLARS).

    So I think that it’s not THE GOOD NEWS. But it’s a good news. Specialy the fact that they are more and more open and more important the competition seams to be very serious (several companies, a lots of news, some proof of concept, a lots of conference, big investments for commercialisation, everyone watching closely all the others…).

  • julian

    Aderans has not impressed me so far, regardless of the amount of money they have put into their research. Same thing for Histogen. Follica and Replicel are the ones that look promising to me. I may be wrong off course. But I must say that I’m more than thankful that all of them, and some others too, are giving their best efforts to provide us with an effective treatment or solution to AA.

  • J

    how much longer dammit!!!!???

  • Ryan

    Too much longer J.

  • McJ

    Slow news day yet again but I came across this;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCCVYCapt9A

    No news regarding Follica sadly but it has Daphne Zohar detailing some of PureTech’s goals. I still have a lot of faith in these folks. They definitely do things differently at Follica, particularly regarding their stream (or lack thereof) of info. Something new info before the end of the year would be great though.

  • allan

    hitzig is just a plan bullshit artist, i’ve lost alot of respect for kobren for not slamming him and hard. he says he is just trying to get the imformation out, but he doesn’t call him out hard. hitzig is sick or just evil.

  • Tom

    I’m just sooo tired of waiting on everything!!! Can someone please just get it done already. Why don’t these companies, just combine and find the solution in a year, they will still make billions. Sorry, I just need to vent. This by far is the best place to go, for real information and no b.s. I think replicel is leading the way, only because they seem to be honest and tell us their plan and where they’re at. However, they are at a minimum 3 years away if everything goes correctly from what I’ve read. I need my hair now, is the best choice just to wait? If I knew nothing was coming out in the next 10 years, I would just have a hair transplant. I just think something is gonna happen, hopefully not false hope.

    Follica, I’m not sure, people seem to be very optimistic about them on here, but I’m not sure why? They don’t say anything really, maybe that’s the intrigue? I hope they do it asap. Aderans is always the same crap, and hsc are they done?

    Is there anyone else?? I’m sure everyone has heard about astressin-b, you can read more at hairloss-research.com, but they are decades away. I’ve read about this new product Capixl coming out in March, but it’s from a cosmetic company and it seems like a gimic. They say they can increase hair density by 46%, but it sounds like crap, anyways I thought I would bring it to the group. website

    http://stemcellbaldnesscures.com/treatment-for-hair-2/capixyl-astressinb-new-hair-regrowth-ingredients-gaining-attention/

    Keep the faith,
    tom

  • julian

    It looks that it is more effective, if it really is, against baldness caused by stress, not the genetic alopecia. So, I don’t think it will make any difference. Meanwhile, I’m looking forward to knowing Replicel’s results by April of next year and also hope that Follica says something by then as well, although I don’t put much trust on that. So far, Replicel is the best thing we have on the horizon, I think. If they really attain their best expectations then we can finally start to celebrate the end of this malady.

  • tk

    These two new treatments look promising, but I wonder how they are allowed to sell this without FDA approval. Looks expensive though, but it could be worth a try.

    Anything that can help me hang on to the baby hairs on my head is great for me. Later we might have ways to turn baby hairs into real terminal hair, so I’m trying to stay confident.

  • tk

    Just got a reply from Histogen, for an e-mail I sent more than a month ago. Here it goes:

    ————-

    Dear tk,

    Thank you for your interest and message. Please excuse the delay in my response, we are working through a large number of inquiries. Although we cannot disclose clinical trial details at this time, HSC continues to progress, and we expect to have updates to share in the coming months, perhaps before the end of the year.

    The current estimated timeframe for market introduction of HSC continues to be 2015/2016, based upon the timelines for clinical trials and regulatory approval. There is a possibility of earlier introduction in some Pan-Asian countries (this may be the earlier 2013/2014 the forum participants refer to). Again, these are only best estimates, and more accurate timelines will be formulated as the clinical trials progress.

    If I can answer any further questions, please feel free to contact me directly at the email below.

    Thank you,

    Eileen Brandt

    Director of Corporate Communications

    Histogen, Inc.

    ————-

    Doesn’t say much, really, but it’s good to know that we might have some news before the end of the year. Hopefully something to make us all really, really happy.

    But it will probably just be some PR bluff.

    Have a great scary balding Halloween! Just don’t look at yourselves in the mirror and everything should be fine.

  • tk

    Anybody here? Why is this place so quiet all of a sudden?

    Maybe all you guys grew a full head of hair and went playing around with the babes. Oh, well…

  • Artista

    to TK..At this point, we are all in a sort of ‘holding pattern’ until we hear something substantive. (which WILL happen in my view) Keep the faith brothers, hang in there.

  • Artista

    Got an email from Replicel today~
    (heres an excerpt)
    “TS001-2009 Clinical Trial Update
    RepliCel is now well into the post-injection follow-up period of its TS001-2009 clinical trial. Subjects are returning to the study centre to have their overall health assessed, as well as to have subjective and objective assessments of the areas that were injected either with verum or placebo. To date, no serious adverse events have been reported post injection in any of the 10 men and 9 women in the study. Digital images are being taken of the scalp to assess any changes post-injection and the differences in health and hair growth between the two treatment areas. RepliCel remains on-track to issue results from all 19 subjects’ six-month follow-up visit in March/April 2012. Subjects will continue to participate in the post-injection follow-up period of the study until August 2013 and final analysis of safety data should be available in late 2013….To view the full November 1st News Release, please visit http://www.replicel.com/replicel-provides-update-on-first-in-man-clinical-trials-and-recent-corporate-activity/.”

    Something to look forward to guys. Lets see just where this goes.

  • tk

    I think Replicel is a very serious contender, although they don’t have ARI’s media attention or financial ressources.

    Once they can get some phase 2 results out of the door, investors will come from big pharma. They will probably be bought for a nice sum too.

    I think they stand a chance.

  • ZZ

    More interviews from Replicel, this time with NBT tv. Not much new but they are certainly spreading the word. And, not that mice experiments mean anything but there are some nice mice pics showing the differing results obtained from dermal papillae vs. dermal cup sheath vs. dermal sheath cells. They say that it takes 6 months to show results and it is now 6 months since the first person in their trial was reinjected so they must have some idea how it is working by now.

    http://www.replicel.com/media/videos/

  • Artista

    To my good friend ‘ZZ’ thanks for the link. I completely agree with your assesment here> “.. They say that it takes 6 months to show results and it is now 6 months since the first person in their trial was reinjected so they must have some idea how it is working by now.”

    They certainly must know what they have at this point. Everyone here knows my stance on postitive outlook. Watch the NBT-TV video interview with Replicel CEO David Hall. Ill leave it at that.

  • juliano

    Well…

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FOLLICA

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>REPLICEL

    coming closer, Follica, you better hurry up!! here comes Replicel!!!

  • julian

    David Hall looks like Michael Douglas. They made hair grow out of a mouse’s foot. 60% of men and women wants more hair than money and friends, according to a survey. I suppose not only true bald men and women but also those who just think they don’t have enough. Therefore, the size of this market is much bigger than 1 or 2 billion dollars a year in the US alone. This figures are based on what people spend annually with treatments for hairless and alopecia. But there is a much much bigger number of people that don’t spend their money cause they think the results of the present treatments aren’t worth it. I think this market is at least 10 times this figure, just in the US, if a treatment that effectively makes a lot of hair grow gets out. I mean, these guys don’t have the exact idea of the mountain of money they may be sitting on!!

  • ZZ

    Thanks Artista and I agree Julian. Michael Douglas came to mind as well when watching that series of videos and I think the size of this market is substantially larger than the current size. A negating factor is that the recurring yearly 1 billion or so on propecia, minox, etc, once they use the next generation product, won’t be recurring anymore. One very encouuraging aspect of those pictures is that, at least from the little we know, the positive but sporadic results using DP cells seem to have translated over to humans in Aderans trials. Let’s hope Replicel’s more robust consistent results (50% increase 100% of the time) transfer over as well.

  • Tom

    Great link ZZ. I hope Replicel has it, unless someone can beat them. Please everyone hurry up!! The last video was talking about availability though. If they get to phase 2 and it goes well they said it should be another 18-24 months. BUT then they said in the west it would be another 18-24 months to do a dosing final stage, so you’re talking 2015 minimum. That’s a long freakin time. I was thinking just another 18 months or so and then bam, no more xconomy. I saw on another video, I think it was posted on here with David Hall and he said they might be able to avoid having to do the final dosing stage, since it’s your own cells and maybe won’t be enforced, some companies are trying to push that in court right now against fda I think he said. I can just see the FDA screwin us. What do you guys think?

    I mean you would first have to have cells removed and then several months later go back to have implanted, so it would be nice to do this local, but I guess I shouldn’t get so far ahead of myself!!

  • Bald Head

    Sh*t, we will all die bald!

  • Maverick

    I think you worry about that FDA too much. If FDA would make too much trouble, you just go to for example Mexico and do the procedure. Some countries will have the procedure sooner.

  • julian

    NoNo Bald Head!! We all will look like Michael Douglas in a not so far future!!! lol

  • Maverick

    Why would you wanna look like Michael Douglas? He is one ugly SOB. But in our lifetime we shall definitely see some serious progress and we shall not die bald, that is for sure. I can not believe there are some people here that are skeptical about it, we are talking about 40-50 years in the future.

  • Balded Shamed

    @Maverick: Maybe mr. blad head have some terrible disease!

  • julian

    40-50 years!!!??? woowww… lol… I’ve seen many pessimists around here but you beat them all… thanks Lord you should be very wrong, and will be glad to be. Well… better looking like Michael Douglas than Dr. Evil, I guess. At least Michael has a hairstyle, and can change it when he wants. When you’re bald you only have two options: Bozo style or Dr. Evil style. Sorry, I ABHOR both of them.

  • tk

    Julia is probably right in his optimism. Looks like the research is going really well.

    Still, I wish I could be a mouse. I’d be banging Minnie all day, have lots of hairy baby mice.

    Mice have all the fun… and the hair!

  • Maverick

    @Julian

    Please read with understanding. I was referring to Bald head˙s “dying bald”. Even the worst pessimist will not have to worry about dying bald as in 40-50 years from now on they will absolutely 100% have some really decent and good treatments for hair loss. And yes, Michael Douglas still looks bad even with his hair. People who look good, they look good with or without hair.

    @tk

    Mice have fun until the cat arrives. It sucks to be them in the long term.

  • Maverick

    @Balded Shamed

    If that is so, then hair loss is among the last on the “things to do before I go” list.

  • julian

    @Maverick…I really think it can’t take that long. It’s just my opinion as that is just yours. Mine is based on what we have seen happen concerning this matter and, by the looks of it, it seems that a new treatment is very close to become real. I suppose in 5-10 years at the most we’ll have an efficacious treatment or even a definite solution to alopecia. It could be sooner as well, which would be awesome for us, but I consider 5-10 years a sensible and realistic estimate. Sorry, but 40-50 years is beyond pessimism. Dealing with this amount of time is a foreteller’s task.

    I also don’t think Michael Douglas is that bad looking. He’s a little old now but looks good for his age and we must admit that he has an enviable full head of hair. I agree with you, just having hair doesn’t make one beautiful. I think some types of faces look even better with shorter or shaved hair. But I think that hair or a hairstyle usually enhances someone’s appearance and makes them more attractive.

  • tk

    I think julian is right: somewhere between 5 or 10 years, this should be behind us. The research is looking mighty good now, and coming from all angles too. So if you get all of these therapies, the cumulative effect should be pretty good for most people.

    I disagree with his taste for Michael Douglas though. I’d rather bang Catherine Zeta Jones. But to each his own.

  • ghandi

    Anyone saying 5 – 10 years is just pulling it out of their ass until we see some solid clinical results. It’s all about results and that’s the only thing anyone should be focusing on and talking about.

  • julian

    Hey @ghandi, you should be polite. I mentioned 5-10 years but I think it can be sooner, as I said. I don’t know what will happen. I just read and try to be aware of what’s going on since I’m more than interested in this matter. Estimates don’t help us, it’s obvious. We’re all waiting anxiously for results. If Replicel is successful in their human trials, and the good point is that we’ll know that soon at least, we’ll finally have a major advance, something real, finally! Other than that, Follica could “surprise” us finally as well.

    @tk, I’m not gay, I don’t have a taste for Michael Douglas; I just said that I don’t think he is too ugly, the same way I’d say that a pet for example isn’t too ugly. I didn’t say he is hot. To me no man is hot. I like women and only women, sexually. These things are not the same thing, you should know.

  • julian

    so you’d RATHER bang Catherine.. Lol… I woudn’t RATHER. I would ONLY bang Catherine, given this utopic chance. lol…

  • Kpo

    Hey… I think follica is some years away from their final product
    Their human tests isn´t about a final product but preliminar tests with diffent things
    Nothing near a final product growing hair

  • Maverick

    Follica is yet not far away to be slapped in the face by the competition. Who else gives a crap about them anymore, to hell with their secrecy, we are not developing nuclear warheads here FFS.

  • tokio

    There´s a japanese doctor selling hsc treatment on his website… I don´t believe…
    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmarubiyou.exblog.jp%2F

  • tk

    @tokio,
    You’re Japanese I presume? We’ve known about Dr Akai for a while. It looks legit, as there is another clinic near Sendai who is offering the treatment, at half the cost. But it’s still experimental. Some people tried it, but had no results. (But it seems they were extensively bald.)

    If you can get some info directly from the clinic, let us know!

  • pebl

    Histogen does not have any international patents; they only hold patents in the US and Europe. Unfortunately, I think its very possible that Akai isn’t actually scamming anybody, but using his own formulation of HSC based on the patents published so far. How much such a formulation would differ from the end product remains to be seen, I guess…

  • tk

    Naaah, Dr Akai is testing the real stuff for HSC. Histogen even said that the tsunami had affected the testing in Japan. This is probably the clinic near Sendai.

    This is the real thing. We will soon find out if it works or not. So far all the patients have said that it doesn’t, but they may have been too bald to save.

  • Bozo

    How can you people say that Follica is in front of all competition when they haven’t showed ANYTHING yet. All they’ve done is lie to people by setting false deadlines. They’re attention whores and they’re just making money by coming up in the media 1 or 2 times a year to lure retarded investors who have too much money to spend anyway.

    Cotsarelis is the biggest troll in this industry.

    Replicel is still at mice stage.
    Histogen is dead.
    Astressin-B is a joke.
    Aderans are the only one being serious and actually delivering some positive results. They’ve spent some big $$$ and they’re owned by a SERIOUS group of people.
    And Follica haven’t done shit.

  • rev

    ummm. ok. thanks for coming out.

  • pebl

    @tk: I suppose you might be right, although I find it hard to believe that they’re actually testing the compound by selling it to the public (so much for a double-blinded study, lol.) BTW, didn’t they move out the testing from Japan? Could it be that they had some left over product that they just sold off to Akai et al?

    Slick bald or not, if it indeed was the legit HSC, I think it’s very bad news. Histogen has stated that their compound should be able to induce follicular neogenesis as well as thicken any existing hair (even vellus, I’d presume.)

  • tk

    @pebl,
    Yeah, it’s pretty bad news, mostly considering that they pulled out of the Singapore trial at the last minute for a fuzzy reason (participants were also on Propecia and Rogaine).

    If HSC can only boost existing hair, then it should be good enough if you ask me.

    My hunch is still that Dr Akai is using the real stuff. There is another one, Dr Mitsugi I believe, who is based in Miyagi, near Sendai.

    So if HSC works, we have a place to go get it done. That’s a plus.

    <